Overcomplicated

Bridie22

Rosecarmel.
That works on both sides of the estranged relationship.

All relationships, Bridie- We all make mistakes-

We certainly do !

Bridie I also want to apologize for your name being autocorrected by my phone. I was certainly not changing it on purpose and was not trying to be passive aggressive or rude.

I still don’t agree that a two year old article regarding narcissistic abuse is outdated.

MamaBear20 -- "I still don’t agree that a two year old article regarding narcissistic abuse is outdated."

I agree.

Bridie22

We certainly do !

True-

Many children languish in the the illusion that they are to blame for their parents mistakes- They often make that mistake-

When they realize blaming themselves for their parents mistakes is a mistake they're emancipated-

If and when they have children, they will make mistakes as parents, responsible parents that hold themselves accountable for their parental mistakes-

Yes Smileless the silent treatment is terrible and is unfortunately used in many different relationships. I once had a coworker who gave me the silent treatment, which went on for many months. It made for a very uncomfortable and hostile work environment. This coworker wouldn’t look at me, speak to me, and I gnoses me when I spoke to her. I finally decided to confront her privately. She admitted that she was indeed giving me the silent treatment. I had offended her when I took a job assignment that really had nothing to do with her, but that she saw as a slight. She then apologized and admitted to having Borderline Personality Disorder. People with BPD are Narcissists, and the silent treatment is a preferred weapon. After this happened, I was able to recognize the silent treatment quickly for what it was when my MIL began using it against me and my husband.

Mamabear 20
Thank you.
Research 27 Jan 2020
Only 0.5% to 1% of the population have true narcissistic personality disorder, or 1 in every 200 people, and 50 % to 75% are male.
I don't know how many regular male/female posters are on the estrangement thread, but looking at the info I can't see how this information we are constantly given from other posters applies to many on these threads.

Bridie I imagine it applies to many of the people on these forums. With narcissists, or other disordered personalities, it’s often impossible to have a conversation about grievances without them ramping up their abuse, which often leads to estrangement. People who are able to work out their problems in a healthy way don’t often turn to these kinds of forums for help.

How can it apply, I don't think 50/75% of gransnet members alone are males, and I disagree, sometimes life is unkind and people sometimes find it difficult to make sense of some situations, and it can help to have some input from people in similar situations, e.g think AA support groups, slimming world etc.

That's the thing.
Imagining isn't the same as fact, and it's fact that a lay person isn't qualified to diagnose anyone else, particularly people they've never met or had dealings with.

1% of the worlds population is about 78 million people.

I know that some of you are interested in the universe, well a new 3d map was just released of the universe and it's beautiful ..

m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=KJJXbcf8kxA&feature=emb_title

Narcissism really is not uncommon. I know of three people in my life who are Narcissists. It’s difficult to diagnose, but one was diagnosed by their therapist, and the other two were diagnosed based on what family members reported to their own therapist. Narcissists are hard to spot if your not in their inner circle.

I agree with you Bridie and as there aren't nearly as many regular posters of the estrangement threads are there on some of the others on GN, the percentages don't make sense.

I think the constant references to narcissism are miss leading unless of course there's a desire to try and portray the majority of EP's as having a narcissistic personality which doesn't stack up, especially when you look at the stories from EP's who post here.

That must have been an extremely unpleasant experience MamaBear and you did well to confront her. I wonder though, if her apology and declaring her BPD were an indication that she wasn't a narcissist as if she were, it would have been very unusual for her admit too and accept fault.

I don't necessarily agree that "people who are able to work out their problems in a healthy way don't often turn to these kinds of forums for help". It isn't possible to sort out estrangement unless those concerned wish to do so, so for many the option to find a healthy solution to that particular problem, simply doesn't exist.

Good point MissA.

In my experience narcissists are easier to spot with the benefit of hindsight, when it's often too late to do anything about the damage they can cause, because they've already done it.

When these estrangement threads first started they were a safe and comfortable place for people who were estranged from loved ones.
And regardless of the wrongs and rights of each individual case people were given empathy and support just because they were hurting and confused.
Sadly this is no longer the case, it has just turned into a point scoring exercise.

Yes it's a shame, I remember when the estrangement threads were like that too Bridie.

I don't know if you've seen the thread 'Support for all living with estrangement', it's just as you remember with empathy and support for anyone who is hurt and confused regardless of their personal circumstances.

When did "people we don't much like" and "people we don't really get on with" become "those people are narcissists"? I don't think I've ever met a narcissist. I've come across a lot of people who are self centred, selfish, childish and just plain manipulative. But I've never considered myself sufficiently qualified to bestow a diagnosis of a clinical psychological disorder on them. Can I ask all you Clinical Psychologists where you studied and obtained your emeritus qualifications from?

Yes Smileless it was a very uncomfortable work situation. I believe the way I confronted her allowed her to not get defensive and admit to the BPD, which she told me took many years of therapy to help her manage. I asked her if I had done something to offend her. She find me what I did. I listened, and we talked. After that she treated me like a good friend. It was very eye opening to the way people with disordered personalities perceive offenses.

Also, I think for most people (if not all) estrangement is a last resort, especially between adult children and their parents. I don’t know anyone who would estrange from their parents or their children when there is mutual respect. If both sides are emotionally healthy and respectful, there would be no need to be here, would there?

Thank you smileless I shall have a look at the thread.

I agree that "if both sides are emotionally healthy and respectful, there would be no need to be here" but sadly when it comes to estrangement that is rarely, if ever the case MamaBear, hence the estrangement.

I also agree that it is often a last resort but it very much depends on why it's a last resort. For example the AC of an abusive parent estranges as a last resort to be free of their abuser.

An AC who marries or establishes a relationship with someone who is emotionally abusive, controlling and manipulative may see estranging their parents as a last resort to maintain their adult relationship, especially when they have children of their own, and want to keep their family unit in tact for the sake of their children.

It can also be the case that because of the subtle control and manipulation they've been subjected too over a period of time, they are blind to the extent they've been manipulated 'believing' that the estrangement of their parents is justifiable.

Although it is all too often disregarded, especially here on GN I've found, the importance of a third party's influence should never be underestimated.

There are numerous examples of how a parent's relationship with their AC is undermined by that AC's partner. There are currently examples being discussed here on other threads where this is the case.

If it's possible for the mutual love between an AC and his/her parents to be undermined by a third party which it is, it is small by comparison to accept that the mutual respect they once shared can be undermined too.

MamaBear -- I guess you could say my 'mom' was diagnosed in absentia due to my diagnosis of C-PTSD due to Narcissistic Child Abuse... And I agree. It's not nearly as uncommon as some think. I'm not sure how many people in my family would be considered full blown NPD but more then just my 'mom' because the number of other 'family' members who display Narcissistic traits is also alarming.

Chewbacca There are plenty of people I don’t like much or don’t get on well with who I wouldn’t call narcissists. That doesn’t mean narcissists don’t exist. In my case of estrangement, my MIL is most definitely a Narcissist. Of course that doesn’t mean that all EP are.

Smileless I agree that a third party can have influence and cause an estrangement. Not saying this is the case for other people, but for me, my husband was unaware of how abusive his mother was until he saw her turn her abuse on me. I took it for a lot of years because “family”, but I eventually hit my breaking point and cut contact. MY husband was blissfully unaware that MILs behavior was abusive until he married me, and if he hadn’t married me and seen it he never would have estranged from his parents. From MILs perspective, the estrangement is my fault. From my perspective, she caused the estrangement with the way she treated me. Either way, I suppose a third party (me) caused the estrangement.

A diagnosis for narcissistic personality disorder is made by a mental health professional comparing your symptoms and life history with those listed here. They will make a determination whether your symptoms meet the criteria necessary for a personality disorder diagnosis

MamaBear -- My MiL blames Me even though He was No Contact with her before We met. LOL Match that logic!