Understanding estrangement

Onward and upwards...

How sad that your son has changed so much. Yes I'm afraid bitterness and hatred will show in the face. Bitterness is a poison which destroys its host. Hatred warps the very soul. Not surprised he has aged 10 years. A serene and youthful countenance cannot be had when rage, bitterness and hatred are allowed to run amok.

Which is why I'm letting go of all the negativity. Trying to be a realist and accepting what will be. Que Sera and all that. I will not poison myself with hatred and bitterness.
At the same time I am not going to be a passive victim, I am going to make a fresh start and continue life's journey with joy and hope driving me forward. If my son wants to join me and share that journey then great, if not then that's a shame but I'm not going to torture myself any more.

I've done my level best. Like all loving parents I have made sacrifices and compromises. I have done everything I can to be a good MIL and for my pains I have been kicked in the teeth.

You are so right, we can't change others, we can only change ourselves. I am going to embrace change and look forward to a more peaceful and stress free future.

OnwardandUpward don't torture yourself by looking at photos of your son online. You have done all you can there is nothing you can do. Time to draw a line under that chapter in your life.

Concentrate on people who love and care for you and who you love and care for. Past is gone. The present and future is yours for the making. So make the best present and future you can. Life is short and you need to live it to the full. Doing what you want being the person you know you are.

If there are things or places you have wanted to do or go . Do them . It's time to put your wants and needs first. And do it with your head held high. No looking back.

DerbyshireLass thank for your kind words. Never know if what I write makes sense but it's how I feel about things.

I had a massive declutter before I moved and thought I was being very good and still had to declutter once in my bungalow. It's so freeing getting rid of stuff. I love my par down living. Did whittle my books down from over 500 to 300 but guilty of adding to it. Also my cross stitch stash has gotten larger.

I sold all my unwanted jewellery before my son decided he didn't want me. As neither my children wanted anything. So that brought the double bed and mattress for the spare room. Sold a few other things. But the rest went to charity before and after my move.

Don't blame yourself for putting up with your daughter in law's behaviour you put up with it same as me because we love our sons and grandchildren. In my case I loved my daughter in law but she killed that love with one sentence.

Love your last paragraph. My son had grit seems it ground down to fine sand.

Good advice from Madgran Alfiebear, putting the ball firmly in your H's D's court will make future contact her decision rather than yours.

Wills are a difficult subject without a doubt. We have changed ours, making our DS sole beneficiary. Our wills state that our ES was amply provided for during our life time, and of course there's the money we invested in their house which although contrary to the agreement, is unlikely to ever be re paid.

The first paragraph of your post earlier certainly resonates with me DerbyshireLass. I was truly shocked to see how much our ES had changed/deteriorated physically.

That was the last time I saw him about 3 years ago when we drove past his house. I'm so relieved that because of our move, I'll in all probability, never see him again.

Don't torture yourself OnwardandUpward. I understand the temptation, Mr. S. kept looking for and finding photo's of our GC on line. The problem was, he'd show them to me even though I didn't want to see them.

It's bad enough when they pop up from time to time on FB because of some anniversary or other, those being of our ES not the GC.

Smileless I think putting some physical distance between yourself and your ES was a wise thing to do. I will probably do the same when I sell up and downsize. I won't be following them on social media either. Needless torture.

Yes my son is a changed man. No longer the happy smiler but in his place a very much diminished man. He doesn't even take care of his health and fitness anymore. He has gone from being an adventure loving athlete to a humourless sad creature who runs around like a headless chicken, waiting hand and foot on DIL, pandering to her every whim. I can't stand to see it.

And I just can't fathom how he allowed himself to become so henpecked and so beaten down. Where's his manhood, where's his pride and dignity. I hardly recognise him any more. His father would be appalled. Tbh I lost my real son a while ago. I just wouldn't admit it.

We must not torture ourselves, that way lies madness.

I wish I could find an area to move away from all the memories here. I used to want the relationship I had but like others have said, it’s not there anymore, they are different people. Weekends are the worse where I live it’s all families, feel more alone at weekends.

Yes, weekends can be difficult, especially for those who live. That's why I set aside weekends for diy or gardening. I find keeping busy helps a bit.

I have just about worked myself to a standstill. But it has helped lift my mood, and of course being out in the fresh air all day has to be beneficial to my emotional well being. I feel very tired but well pleased with what I have achieved today. It's given me a bit of a boost.

What kind of an area would you like to move to. Have you started having a good look round. Would it help to stay a couple of nights somewhere and see if you like it. Just try it on for size.

I am seriously think of renting for a while next time. Maybe try one or two different areas, see where I'm like best. Maybe even a completely different town. I currently live in a suburb, about 3 miles from the city centre. Nothing special but pleasant enough. I don't know whether to move closer into the city or whether to look at some of the smaller satellite towns. It won't happen until next year at the earliest so plenty of time to mull it over.

But the more I think about it, the more the idea of moving appeals. A nice fresh start.

Those who live alone....??

@Derbyshirelass I admire your grit and style! You have got some great coping mechanisms there! Thanks and you're right about the countenance! I am working on a smooth (ish) forehead (no botox here!) but stress free! I love the positive changes you're making to your life and your view, that your son can choose to join you - or not.

Whiff thanks. I know it doesn't really help but I'd love to see photos of them happy , even if it didn't include me. Just to know they were happy and thriving even without me would do. But I don't think he looks well I probably should stop looking. I might do a massive delutter too. I still have garden toys etc that need to go.

Smileless my GC pics are not online. They used to be, but not since my son got involved with the cult. We drove past their house yesterday and today because of where we needed to go. I would rather we didn't go that way, but DH was driving and then I found that I was looking out, desperate to see sight of them alive and well, but nothing- then I was crabby and upset. I am pretty concerned for their wellbeing and just to see them alive and well, in daylight and thriving would be something. I read advice about families with a cult member and it says that you should keep telling them you love them. So far, I haven't done that. Unfortunately because of his MH he is vulnerable and I now know he's being controlled by the group.

So sorry about your son being so henpecked Derbyshirelass That must be so hard to see. My son is very controlling of his wife and yet hes being controlled by an online group. Gardening is very therapeutic. If it wasn't for elderly relatives who we look after and my husbands job, we would like to move far away for a fresh start. It's just not possible at this time. I can definitely understand those wanting to!

Tbh honest I feel that I have been on a long journey. One that has tested me almost beyond endurance at times.

First my husbands long illness, I was his carer for many years. Then his death, then my parents deaths. I lost all three of them within 2.1/2 years. I had to deal with all the legal stuff, sell houses. It was a tough time, my stress levels were through the roof.

I got really sick.....my IBS flared up, my Adrenal glands were shot, I developed thyroid problems, fibromyalgia, arthritis - you name it. All linked and all stress related. I then had two bad car crashes, damaging my shoulder. I tore my meniscus on my right knee. The list of minor illnesses and petty injuries just seemed endless but I have fought back. and am much better now.

It took me a long while to regain my health and recover some of my old vitality. It's only this last year or so that I finally felt that I had turned a corner, and that I was back on track. This is why I am fighting so hard to stay healthy and not allow estrangement to derail my efforts. This is why I have decided to banish DIL, even if it means losing my son. I will not let her make me ill.

I am not a person of faith. I have no religion to sustain me (I sometimes wished I had) so I turned to the world of psychology and philosophy to try to get through it all. I got interested in personal development and life coaching and it is from these that I have been able to develop coping skills.

I practise meditation, do yoga, and keep a journal. I listen to podcasts and TED talks of motivational speeches. I have recently discovered a practice called "Miracle Mornings". I can thoroughly recommend it. There's a book but you can get all the information about it free on the internet, just Google Miracle Mornings. It's all about how you start the day, getting into the right mindset and that how you start the morning determines the tone of your day.

I have been following my practice for about 2 months now. I dont follow it slavishly, I have adapted some of the routines to suit me. But it has made a huge difference. I did backslide last week, I didn't take the time out to exercise properly but I did manage to keep up with journalling and of course I discovered you lovely lot. This thread and my journal are all the therapy I need.

I am so pleased with what I have achieved today. Working with my hands always stills the negative chatter in my brain. I find gardening in particular very therapeutic, it really helps with stress management, although not quite sure whether fence and shed painting could be classed as true gardening.? The fresh air was lovely and I feel a lot more relaxed tonight.

Just taking baby steps......

Feeling really fragile today. Tears keep pricking my eyes but I keep fighting them back. I know tears can be a blessed release but I feel, just like the old song, that I have cried a river over this.

Still no contact from either of them. I don't know whether it's just the "silent treatment" to punish me or whether it is now a full blown estrangement. I guess only time will tell. Very rude though. And it feels like they think they are entitled to call all the shots, that I have no say in the matter, that they can just pick me up and then put me down whenever they feel like it.

Well they need to make their minds up, pdq because I'm running out of all sympathy or patience. There's a very coarse expression......they either need to p* or get off the pot.

What they don't realise is that their avoidance technique is backfiring. Mind games don't work with me. Not only am I getting angrier by the day but I am beginning to lose all patience with my son. I'm beginning to despise the pair of them, her for her rudeness, abuse and pathetic attempts at emotional blackmail and him for being such a gutless coward,

One thing has occurred to me......even if this is not an estrangement our relationship has taken a real battering. I will never be able to fully relax around them or trust either of them again. Do I really want a relationship that is so one sided, where there can be no trust and where I will forever be walking on eggshells, always fearful of estrangement.

I think I deserve more than that. I think I deserve to be more than merely tolerated. If they don't want me in their lives then they should have the common decency to say so.

In the meantime, I just keeping busy. I went shopping, bought diy supplies and then food shopping, I have just finished the last bit of fence painting. Going to have a snack and then make a start on the shed.

I feel really tired and don't really feel like working but it will do me good, better than sitting around feeling helpless.

Oh DerbyshireLass as is so often the case, I'm afraid they probably do think they are entitled to call the shots; think that you shouldn't have any say in what's going on and that they can just pick you up then put you down when ever they feel like it.

They are cruel, your son is cowardly and IMO he is taking your love for him for granted. When our son wrote and told us we were no longer a part of his and our GC's lives and were to stay away, I honestly don't think he or his wife actually expected us to do so.

I don't think his brother thought we would either, but we did.

Perhaps they miss construe what unconditional love means. We love our children unconditionally, despite the pain and heart ache they have caused by estranging us/treating us badly.

We don't stop loving them but that doesn't prevent us from refusing to play their nasty little games and even for some of, realising that our lives are more peaceful without them.

Realising the extent of the damage they've done to your relationship even if they don't actually estrange you is hard and perhaps something else they haven't taken into consideration.

"I think I deserve more than that" you most certainly do. You deserve to be shown you are loved, you deserve to be hugged and spoiled now and again with little gifts just to brighten your day.

So ............. BIG(((hug))) x

Derbyshirelass sadly they may have to learn the hard way that their tactics are backfiring. Sad for them when they realise and it is too late. You have reached your red line as we all do in different situations...and that red line is a big shock to others!

Take care of yourself.

Thank you Madgran and Smileless.

I do feel that I'm monopolising this thread at the moment but it's so nice to be able to come on here and tell it how it is. To know that there are people who aren't judging me and finding me wanting, and of course to get some feedback and learn from those who have walked this way before me.

One starts to question ones sanity at times. Repeatedly rerunning things over in my mind. Asking myself, is it me, is it my fault. Did I spoil him. Did I make a rod for my own back by trying to ignore the signs that DIL was a narc. Could I have done things differently. My head tells me probably not, that this was always her endgame.

Nasty little games indeed. And you're so right, unconditional love shouldn't mean that we allow ourselves to be abused and humiliated. The longer this "dangling" goes on the more I feel any sympathy for them just slipping away.

Yes, you're right Madgran, I think I have reached my red line, not just with my DIL but also now with my son too. I know I'm not the first EP to say this.....but I never thought this could happen. My husband would be turning his grave. He would be so ashamed of his sons lack of moral fibre. He would be furious at the way I am being treated. He would be incandescent if he knew that they were using the children as leverage.

What the dozy pair don't seem to be capable of realising is that DS2 and I are more or less all the family they have in the U.K. apart from a couple of aunts who they also hold at arms length. What happens when something happens, will they still expect me to drop everything and run to their aid. I guess they will expect exactly that. Either that or they think they are invincible, that they are untouchable.

But as we all know none of us are invincible. Their hubris will be their undoing in the end.

I just feel absolutely drained and totally rung out today.

It's like being hit by a series of tsunamis.

I wonder about 'unconditional love" too, l wonder how l would react if my son ever got in touch with me again and told me his wife had died. Would l want him in my life again, somehow l don't think so. Perhaps at a distance?? I just don't know.
How would other estranged mothers feel about it?

I would always wonder if he'd have wanted to come back if that hadn't happened, and if not, why now!! I honestly don't think I will ever want him back under any circumstances Hilltop but I'll love him to my dying day.

Of course you're not monopolising the thread DerbyshireLass, this is what these threads are for and it's good to know that sharing here is helping you.

"this was always her endgame" it was our ES's wife's endgame too. Even if we'd been able to see what she was up too before it was too late, there's nothing we could have done about it.

I realise that now but it took some time and that was the only thing I've ever felt guilty about; how could I have been so blind and so stupid. I feel as if I should have protected him so he would be today the lovely young man he used to be, but I couldn't.

Derbyshirelass We all have times when we need to "monopolise", circumstances create the need to talk and that is fine

I think that the help and support with childcare or whatever can get taken for granted and then when it disappears it comes as a huge shock!!

DerbyshireLass I echo Smiles and Madgran.

I felt like I was monopolising the thread when I first joined. But it's the only way we can get our stories out. And by telling our stories we can get the help and support of others who know the pain we are going through.

When I had my son's email I read it over and over again. I couldn't believe my own son would write such lies and be so cruel and cowardly. I have never cried so much since my husband died. I was so tired all the time.

And being trolled by my daughter in law on another Gransnet thread and finding out all the awful things she wrote on Reddit about me and my daughter. And to realise she had been writing long before I moved to live closer to both families was awful.

Then the presents and cards came back plus a letter from my son. I couldn't believe my son could be so spiteful to his own children that he wouldn't let them have birthday presents, birth presents and present for my oldest grandson from me.

I cried so much it hurt. So I understand how you feel.

My grandson's are growing up without all our side of the family. My son's choice. He not only hurt me but all my side of the family.

I will never trust him again or forgive him or my daughter in law.

What hurts and must hurt you to is that if our husbands where alive this would never have happened. My husband wouldn't have put up with what I did for years. But because I lived so far away I was just happy to spend time with them.

Then once I moved saw my son and grandson's every week and looking forward to another grandson. To have that torn away is so cruel.
But at least with that letter last August made it final . I haven't had to put up with the abuse some here have suffered.

You have bent over backwards for them and put up with haressment and vileness from your daughter in law. They forget sending texts etc is something that can be saved.

You say you feel like you have been hit by tsunamis. My version is being hit by a tidal wave of grief for my husband and my grandson's.

But it's now time for you to put yourself first. It's hard but you must. You have a son who loves you cherish him as I cherish my daughter and family.

It's not selfish to put yourself first for once. What you your husband want you to do? ?

I don't know, Hilltop. It's the £1m question isn't it.

Could we trust someone who has hurt and abused us and just tossed us away like a piece of rubbish. Would we hold back fearing they would do it again if it suited them or if we didn't "toe the line".

Perhaps we could forgive but. I doubt we would forget.

Maya Angelou said "we can forget what was said to us, we can forget what was done to us, but we can never forget how we were made to feel".

How can I ever forget that I have been made to feel worthless and unwanted by the son I love so much.

Whiff.....My husbands dying words were "look after the boys". That's all I have ever tried to do.

I know this sounds odd but I think she just saw my son as easy prey. They met just one month after his fathers death I think he was vulnerable and she just pounced.

I have often wondered about something. It bothered me at the time and I often wonder if it was an early red flag,

My husband suffered from a rare neurological condition, the effects and symptoms of which are very similar to MND. He ended up a paraplegic.

On their first date she asked him to take her to the cinema to see "The Theory of Everything", the life story of Stephen Hawkins. He did as asked and got a bit upset during the film. Apparently she said she had no idea about the nature of his fathers Illness and would have never have suggested the film had she known.

I am not so sure....... They met at work, worked in the same office. All his colleagues knew. She must have known, they had worked together for several weeks before dating, she had plenty of time to find out.

Maybe I'm being unfair, seeing something sinister that just wasn't here but I have to say it's something that has always made me feel uncomfortable.

What would my husband say now. I think he would tell me to take care of myself now. To put it all behind me, that I have been a good mother, that I've done my best and that I need to build myself a new life.

Million dollar question isn't it ?
Why would we allow anyone back in our lives who have treated us so cruelly ?, whether its our children, husbands , partners or friends...its that one word " love " that makes us falter.
I honestly don't know what I would do if my child wanted to be back in my life...I could never trust them again and the relationship could never be close again, no one will ever get the chance to hurt me like this ever again.

It’s all out of our hands except how we choose to respond.

So sorry for all your pain, ladies.

Derbyshirelass losing your husband and your parents so close together must have been devastating. So sorry for your loss and your accident too. Miracle Mornings sound amazing and you're doing all the right things! You're not monopolising the thread but you're new and things need to come out. Better out than in!

My husband said he felt that ES would not estrange from us as he threatened because he doesn't have anyone else locally, *but he did do it*- and he has lost contact with everyone in the family. What are they thinking to bring up their kids with no family? What happened to "It takes a village to raise a child"?

That's super heartless of your son, Smileless so sorry. I can't imagine why he would tell you to stay away if he didn't want you to? My son has written me out of his life and he said it's because I had the covid vaccine, but in reality I think he's mad over some things from the past. I did do my best , as we all do, but it wasn't good enough.

I think if something awful happened and they came back into our lives we would have to be distant and make it clear just how hurt we have been. They would have to be sorry and make it obvious that they had changed . I also think they would have to make all of the effort and that we shouldn't make it easy for them to hurt us again.

We talked about wills today. My husband is definitely more open to discuss these things now and we are planning for a quiet Christmas. We have no expectations, but we will be busy looking after our elderly relatives. We doubt that EC will be caring for anyone except themselves!

Good Morning

Woke up early, first thought that springs into my head is the situation. What will happen, will I hear from them today. Of course I won't. They've not punished me enough yet.

I guess it's is just still very raw but I don't want it to dominate my thoughts like this. I feel like a prisoner to my mind. That's where I need to do the work. Manage my thoughts better, accept and move on. It's just getting to the stage of acceptance isn't it. I need to stop resisting, and hoping against hope. Just accept my new reality. I guess it will just take time.

Last Christmas was very difficult. I hosted Christmas Day (as usual), worked like a demon to make everything nice and give everyone a nice time. I walked on eggshells the whole time. It was very stressful. I was left feeling exhausted. It took me most of Boxing Day to clear up. I actually spent a lot of money - presents, treats, the food and drink, not that that matters but it was a bit galling if I'm honest to feel so taken for granted. I felt at the time that it was all very one sided, that they didn't appreciate all the work that goes into making Christmas happen, all the effort I had gone to. Even then DIL made it obvious that she only tolerated me and I did end up feeling somewhat used and abused.

I actually fell ill a few days afterwards with a very nasty virus. I wonder how much of that was due to exhaustion. How much of it was stress induced.

At least this year will be less stressful.......however I get to spend it. A quiet Christmas will be just fine.

You're right Onward......our EC will be caring only about themselves.

It's funny but after what has happened I have been revisiting some past conversations, some past events. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I am seeing some things very differently now, interpreting them differently in the light of my new reality. Things that I brushed under the carpet or pretended not to notice, all those slights, put downs and thinly disguised insults which I either ignored or put down to my imagination.

My husband used to have this daft convoluted saying..."If only I had had the benefit of foresight to have the wisdom of hindsight". Always made me laugh when he said it. And it does sum up how I feel about what is happening to me now. But you can't turn back the clock.

The past is the past, it's history now. I need to stop raking over the past, looking for meaning and explanations, asking myself why, what did I do wrong. Time to live in the present and work towards a better future. That was then and this is now.

Onwards.....I am not vengeful but I have been dealt such a body blow that I am very doubtful that I even want them in my life now - most definitely not DIL. She could come crawling on her knees but I refuse to have her back in my life under any circumstances. As for my son......well I would have to be very sure that he was truly sorry and that he would never treat me like this again. I would need to know that he is a proper fully fledged adult, able to accept responsibility for the pain he has caused his family.

Onwards.......we ARE good enough. I have come to realise that a big part of the problem is that they have this enormous sense of entitlement. They want the perfect lifestyle. When things go wrong, when they hit a bump in the road they can't cope. They have a hissy fit, they look around for someone to blame. And it is us who are in the firing line. They need to grow up. They are living in cloud cuckoo land.

It really isn't us who are lacking. Sure we may have made some mistakes, none of us is perfect, but that doesn't justify them turning on us. All I can do is speak for myself but I'm sure many of us can say the same. We did our best.

If my best wasn't or isnt good enough, well let them do their worst because I'm done with tying myself in knots trying to please and placate them. If I'm not good enough for them I will save myself further heartache and I will concentrate on the people who do think I'm good enough.

DerbyshireLass your daughter in law was cruel seeing that film with your son. To my mind she did it deliberately. Knowing he was hurting from his dad's death. Why did he carry on seeing her and stay with her all this time. If you don't mind me asking how old was he when his dad died and how old was he when they married.

My son met his future wife a year after he's dad died. They where both 17 that year. I was so happy my boy was happy again. She made him happy and as time went on I grew to love her. They married when they where 28.

It seems she has hated me for a long time why I have no idea. I never treated her badly. My brother thinks she is jealous of my relationship with my son.

She killed any love I had for her with a sentence she wrote on Reddit. I didn't read my friend told me. How any one could write such a wicked thing I will never know. It concerned my husband who she never knew. But I don't hate her. As I have said before don't want or need hate in my life. Had enough of that with my in laws.

What helped me come to terms with the fact my son doesn't want anything to do with me was his letter August last year. He said zero contact so zero contact he has got .With Smiles and everyone's help I can live with that. His choice not mine .

He can't hurt me anymore. I won't let him. I can't stop loving him and my grandson's are innocent in all this.

If he does want his mom back he will have to face me. But I will never let my guard down. I have thought about this a lot. If he turns up on my door step I will be torn between wanting to hug him or hit him. But I know he won't.

Since changing my will last year I have been at peace. I have wobbles and always will have .

We have to live the lives that make us happy . Be with the people we love and for me not wish for something I can't have.

The worse thing to happen to me was my husband dieing. What my son has done pales in comparison to that.

DerbyshireLass you said the other day you are roaring . Start roaring again. The past has gone what present and future do you want? Whatever it is make it a good one.

My daughter said to me the other day I am proud of you mom no matter what lifes throws at you you get on with it.

We all need to be proud of who we are and no matter what life throws at us. Find a way to win through. The suffragettes fought for us to have the vote. We need to fight for the lives we want to live. ??

He was 30. His dad was actually in the process of dying when it was my sons 30th birthday. He was 32 when he got married. She was his first real serious girlfriend. He had dated a bit but he was really more interested in his mates and sport. She is beautiful, glamorous and intelligent - she just swept him off his feet. I too was really happy for him,

I am glad you also see her asking to be taken to see that film as a deliberate act. I used to think it was just me being paranoid but the more I think of it the more I am beginning to think it was a calculated move and part of an orchestrated campaign. Break him down and then build him up. Classic narc love bombing techniques.

Yes, I will keep roaring. ??. Like the the news anchor in the film "Network". "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it".

The longer this silent treatment goes on the more I am resolved to start putting myself first now. I'm done with her rules and regulations, and her attempts to blackmail me.

Three times she has tried to use emotional blackmail and each time I have given her the same answer - if you want to cut me it of your life then do it. But each time she backs down. What she doesn't know yet is that I have already made the decision to banish her from my life. As far as I'm concerned it's done. I just haven't told her yet.

It's my son who is son is sitting on the fence. I always said I would not make him piggy in the middle. I wouldn't make what is a difficult situation even worse, that I would work hard to build a good relationship with my DIL for his sake. But she is the one who has thrown it all back in my face and I have simply reached a point of no return with her.

I have nothing but sympathy and concern for my son, but he has to learn that he cannot treat me like this. This last use of the "silent treatment" has made me furious. It's not acceptable and he too has now crossed a line.

What do I want.....for now peace and quiet and time to heal. In the future I want to build a life where I can be myself. No more eggshells, no more dramas. Being with people who care for me.

I am strong and resilient - I can do this. I will chose happiness.