Why do I torture myself

Violetsky I, too, find the term magic vagina a chuckle. As if men are powerless to keep themselves in control? As if women aren't just as interested in their partner? Ridiculous assumption, to my mind that sex has a thing to contact with AC.

Norah I gave it my best shot it if there is a way to use my magic vagina to encourage my husband to clean out the shed, I haven't discovered it yet.

Madgran77 I would assume in the same way that if my mother were continuously punching me in the face, I'd be responsible for moving out of range. As if by doing that I was responsible for any hurt caused to my mother by removing myself from where she can reach me

It doesn't seem the same to me as what Smiless was saying although I sort of get the point.

If one has instigated an estrangement I suppose one is "responsible" for it in that one has made the decision to estrange

However, that does not make one responsible for the experiences/behaviours/reasons for making that decision to estrange. That is how I read Smileless's post and it does not read like a contradiction to me.

Anyway, I am sure she will explain her perspective at some point rather than my second guessing, as will Hithere

My mother was responsible for my care growing up which is one meaning of the word.

My mother is responsible for the reason we are estranged and therefore the 'primary cause' of estrangement which is another meaning of the word.

I walked away based on my experience of abuse and evidence that there was no way this could be stopped or managed.

It's not a decision I am responsible for, it's not even one I wanted to make.

Abuse is always a choice, walking away from abuse isn't a choice, it's a necessisity.

My only other option was to continue to let her behaviour impact my mental and physical health, which as many experts agree, is sadly tied together.

I didn't say you were responsible for any hurt caused to your mother Violet please don't give a 'meaning' to my previous post that isn't there.

You're right Madgran. Thank you for the correct interpretation of my post. I don't believe any further explanation is required as it's perfectly obvious what I was saying, unless of course some wish to misinterpret for their own reasons.

If only were it just a matter of men being controlled by their sexual urges. Coercive control now a recognised legal offence, emotional abuse/emotional blackmail are far more complex.

I have no personal knowledge of our ES wife's vagina so couldn't say if it's magical or not, but she's a narcissist which tells me all I need to know.

Smileless2012 given that you agree with madgran in her interpretation, then my interpretation was the correct one and everything I have said about the meaning of "responsible" stands.

Vioketsky I understand your points. I think we are interpreting/understanding/
using the word "responsible" in slightly different ways but that's fine, so be it. . My interpretation /use of responsible is not in any way intended to suggest anything negative, unkind or whatever about your obviously necessary decision to walk away.

I see it like this Madgran77

If I kicked a ball and it smashed a window, I would be responsible.

So if kicking a ball is abuse and the smashed window, the broken relatiinship in the scenario with my mum, I was the ball.

That doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my actions and behaviour while we were in a relationship or in the time that led to estrangement.

In abuse scenarios anyone who walks away has no responsibility for how the person they walk away from feels or the impact it has on any other members of the family. That's on the person who caused the estrangement, the abuser.

In abuse scenarios anyone who walks away has no responsibility for how the person they walk away from feels or the impact it has on any other members of the family. That's on the person who caused the estrangement, the abuser.

Absolutely! I agree, in an abuse scenario.

My original comment was that the person who makes the decision to estrange is responsible for their own decision to estrange, which is not the same as responsible for the estrangement. And that does not make them responsible for the experiences/behaviours/ reasons for making that decision to estrange.

I hope that makes sense. I'll leave it there.

Well I suppose in that case I'm just a responsible adult trusted to make the right decision for myself and my children.

Well I suppose in that case I'm just a responsible adult trusted to make the right decision for myself and my children.

I suppose so yes. I'm not sure anyone suggested otherwise.

Your interpretation of my post was not correct *Violetsky" if you think I said you were responsible for causing your mother hurt by estranging her.

I didn't say anything of the kind.

Smileless2012 I have been sharing my thoughts quite honestly throughout this conversation. If you haven't understood something or want to know what I am thinking, just ask.

That's OK thanks Violetsky I'm good.

I’ve often thought about the word ‘ responsible’ It definitely has two meanings.

I remember a sketch in ‘ The Young Ones’ once, where Rick asks Mike if he’s ‘ responsible’ for doing something. Can’t remember what it was, but was negative. Mike’s reply was something like “ yeah, I like to think I’m responsible”, as in very mature.

Sorry to hi jack the thread, but reading the posts, it is clear to me what you mean Violetsky, but I also know Smileless wouldn’t have meant anything derogatory.

A good example DiscoDancer

Discodancer I'm really not upset with Smileless2012 it's an emotive topic, I just wanted to ensure that anyone reading would understand what I was saying.

We had come from talking about whether no contact or estrangement is inherently abusive and I'm aware its going to be tricky having these discussions from different experiences.

I don't understand why you'd have any reason to be upset with me Violetsky as I have never said that going no contact or instigating estrangement is inherently abusive, as all of my posts on this thread attest too.

Smileless2012 I'm really not sure what the right thing to say here is. I'm not saying you have said anything at all. However, it feels like we are in an argument. I don't think either of us would want to be having an argument rather than just listening to each others thoughts and experiences?

Perhaps we can start over?

No argument Violetsky; a disagreement about the interpretation and content of my posts which previous experience here on GN has shown me is best dealt with at the time, before it escalates.

Whether it needed to be said or I just needed to say it, I'm not responsible for the estrangement with my mother, she is.

It is a relief that we actually do agree there Smileless2012

I've had negative comments in the past which were incredibly painful as I wasn't as confident then as I am now.

Not here though Violetsky as you're relatively new, but I've had them here on GN so I know exactly how you feel.

Ive had negative comments too. Something I struggle with a lot is that my Mother is not the loving, kind and supportive mother that others know. I do have minimal contact with her, but to this day my I'm affected by the way she treated me. It almost seems taboo and "ungrateful" to say you have issue with your upbringing, yet its important to own your truth.

I am currently in therapy. Nothing can really heal the scars of an abused past, but you can learn ways of coping. I am not now the scapegoat. I have a good understanding of her mental health and what made her act the way she did. I wish that she would have been mentally and emotionally healthy before having a child she could not cope with who she then blamed for everything.

It shouldn't be taboo, but the mother-child relationship is such an important one that if you had a damaging one it can set you up for life in painful ways. There are ways you can undo it, but it involves Personal Growth and willingness to change.

I totally agree OnwardandUpward that it's important to own your truth and to be allowed to do so.

It's good to know that you're benefiting from therapy and I hope that you continue to do so. As you say, "the mother-child relationship is such an important one", which it makes it so hard for the child whose mother abused them.

I'm so sorry this has been your experience.

OnwardandUpward, I've been reading what you say on the support thread and I'm so sorry you have that sort of mother and are now estranged with your son.

I've also done therapy because I know it's affected me a great deal. I also unknowingly at the time exposed my children to all of it because even though I didn't like how she treated me on the surface, underneath I felt I deserved to be treated badly, I didn't have any knowledge or understanding of the fact that, mothers can be abusive, controlling, neglectful and enmeshed. I thought I wasn't loved because I didn't deserve to be. My fault.

I've struggled with anxiety, depression and illness my whole life and doing so as a mother myself is terrifying. I didn't know how much I was impacted by my upbringing until I walked away from it.

My mother told me so many times that she didn't like me that now my biggest fear is one day my children won't like me. Not estrangement, I'd rather my children walked away from me than simply put up with me, to be a chore, unlike and unwanted again.

I just hope as you say that personal growth and willingness to change will get me there, not just where I am loved and wanted but where I am able to feel all the time that I deserve to be.