Do abusive people know they are abusive?

Jennyluck

I think a lot of abusers are inadequate in some way, so need to control their partner. They’re frightened of loosing them, so ostracise them from friends and family. As the friends and family can see straight through them.
Not sure about mothers who bully, that must be a control thing as well. Not liking the dil is classic. Being worried about loosing their sons. But they must justify their behaviour in their own minds.
Interesting post.

Absolutely the justification is there in their minds. Things like “I am just trying to keep the family together”, when knowing the requests are excessive.

“She’s pulling my boy away” when really they are simply living their life together like a couple should.

“I’ll just wait to pick up the pieces when she leaves you or you've had enough”.—the ultimate red flag of enmeshment. The fantasy of the adult son/daughter packing up the children and moving back for “mum” to return to her place as Queen Bee.

Phrases that on the surface seem to be coming from a hurt parent but are excuses for controlling, inappropriate behavior.

They re write history to suit the narrative they wish to promote and in some cases, the history they themselves feel more comfortable with.

Yes, this seems to be something that happens a lot in my family through the generations and I haven't worked out whether it is because each generation grows up with it so thinks it is perfectly normal or whether there is a genetic link.

People with personality disorders can be helped but they have to be able to recognise that they need help first.

My daughter has been diagnosed and has taken in on board. She is medicated which helps but it would take a lot of therapy to really change her outlook. Although she knows she sees the world from a very different perspective she finds it difficult to admit that it might be her thinking that is skewed rather than somebody else's. I have tried to encourage her to see that I always act from a place of love but she has such low self esteem that she finds that difficult to believe. Unbelievably sad but sometimes very difficult to live with.

The person I knew had periods of extreme self loathing.

I grew up with a Narcissist and although I am reassured that I wasn't the same, I did grow up with learned behaviours. However, I knew that my behaviours were wrong so I did have a lot of self loathing. The trouble was, I didn't have a voice because of my upbringing so manipulation was the only thing I had. It took a lot of effort to stop that and just voice my needs. The more I learned, the more I realised just how wrong my parent was. The difference between her and me is that she just can't see that what she does is wrong so she will never change. I haven't estranged her because I realise she was brought up in the same sort of environment and did not get the chances I had to work it out until it was too ingrained.

They were incapable of seeing that they were the common denominator in all of this, so were miserable a lot of the time. It would have been easier for them if they could have taken responsibility for their actions and tried to do something about their behaviour, but I think that's a big part of the disorder - they just can't do that.

This is so true. My sister cannot see that her behaviour causes her to be abandoned. Her fear of abandonment makes her behaviour worse so people walk away. She will tell you of all the abuse she has suffered whilst abusing all those who were closest to her. The mildest hint that her behaviour might need some inner reflection just causes damage to all concerned. Therapy makes it worse because the account of the abuse she has suffered is so badly skewed and history rewritten so the Therapist is working with wrong information.

And I wonder if there's been any research on why this is? Are some people "magnets" (for want of a better way of putting it) for attracting certain behaviours from others; whether that's physical, mental or emotional?

If you've learned as a child that these behaviours are 'normal' you don't see the red flags. The more you associate with people who are abusers, the more normal it seems.

It's a bit like putting your hand in a fire, and pondering whether a lighter or matched caused it, while you sit there being burnt.
Just take your hand out.

What an absolutely brilliant analogy.

For the most part, I don't think abusers can see they are abusive because they have a more than healthy sense of being "right" and "justified".

it is a nice idea to think they are wrong. do dictators know they are wrong? is it mental illness, are they bad,mad? one thing they is leave a scar in people's lives. the majority of folk with mental issues have had a damaging childhood with a control freak at the helm.What can be done about them, very little unfortunately.

Some good thoughts there icanhandthemback; I too thought MissAs analogy was spectacular! It just so obviously makes sense!

That really is the crux of the matter

Believing they are right and justified.

But how can they stand there in the face of someone who is obviously hurt and upset by their behaviour and remain aloof?

Maybe when the hurt react with anger I can see them twisting that into justification but some reactions are clearly just hurt

My ex used to apologise and say he didn't know what got into him and it would never happen again. It did and he then denied he was doing anything wrong. After our divorce he apologised for everything he put me through. Did I believe him, no, but he knew all along what he had been doing to me.
sandelf you got it so right.

Thank you. I don't always get around to posting my thanks for the kind comments on here but I am always pleased to see them.

My ex ended it (or tried to) shortly after we met, saying I was too nice to put through what he inevitably would.

He told me he had ruined every relationship he'd ever had, with perfectly decent women, and put them through hell, treating them appallingly.

Would I listen?
Nope!

For 6 years I was verbally and sometimes physically bullied by a relative and I had to sell my house and move away. The bully was neglected as a child by the parent so I felt I had to step in to help the abused one but it all made me ill.

Another great post icanhandthemback your contributions to this issue are always to be relied upon.

Sawsage so awful when all you tried to do was help.
Our ES's wife's childhood wasn't good. We welcomed her with open arms, loved her and believed she loved us in return but eventually she turned on us and we lost our son and only GC.

I do understand that what happened made you ill. We were made ill too and moved away after 4 years, 5.5 years ago.

I think some know but others don't. My ex certainly knew because each time he got his way and I thought I'd bought some peace, he moved the goal posts. But he played the victim so well when I escaped that most people still think he's lovely and I'm a wicked, evil woman who deserted a sick man.

It's true that he has a physical illness but that wasn't the issue. I escaped when it came down to run or suicide. I chose to run.

Yes, I think poor childhoods can be a theme. My ex, unquestionably, had a bad childhood. Abused in many ways.?

Curiously, for a time, he seemed happy with his life with me and his children.

We had a nice home, jobs and two lovely children.

Hoevever, it wasn't too long before he started using passive/aggressive behaviour to get his own way.

Even a minor debate with led to "poor me" syndrome for him, looking sad, victim face, going back to talking about his childhood, saying he didn't know why I felt the need to upset him, even when I hadn't.?

When I pointed out my childhood hadn't all been "Pollyanna", and that I wasn't running around moaning, that was apparantly because I was "hard".?

You cannot win with perpetual victims, best to let them stew in their own misery juices.

Which is what I did, and 20 years and a divorce on, I've just given him something else to whinge about.?

Sometimes.abuse behaviour is somewhat inherited from life experiences.i did to my horror and eternal shame started by smacking my little ones when "naughty" I thankfully quickly realised that they were just children being themselves. It's because I was always regularly smacked slapped and yelled at for what I realised in later life,were non incidents, just me being lively/curious/ daft. At the time I thought I was being " normal" I wasn't.

And- I also used to justify my own experience of voilent parent by saying " yes but I was a naughty girl" etc. See? Brainwashed.

I feel neither one way nor the other about being smacked.
I'm aware that I "should" feel terrible about it, but I don't.

Perhaps if the rest of my childhood was terrible, I might do, but it wasn't.

The ex spoke about his dad blacking his eye on Christmas day, then all of the family eating in silence whilst his dads AC/DC music blared out at full volume.

I was once sat in my bedroom and overheard a conversation between my mother and a neighbour. The neighbour asked my mother why she disliked her daughter so much and was always 'getting' at her. My mother was very indignant and denied that she nagged me. It didn't stop her doing it though. Even my own brother commented on it. She was obviously in denial.
My husband, on the other hand, was well aware of what he was doing. It gave him a feeling of power and control.

My ex wasn't really abusive to me, as such.
He would try sometimes, to find a chink in my armour, some means of getting at me, but it didn't work, I think, because I did have a secure, loving upbringing.

No, I was never physically abused, he didn't swear at me, he wasn't unfaithful, he didn't really drink, never gambled, and worked hard,

The epitome of a wonderful husband and father..

He used to wait until he felt I was tired, unwell, stressed, whatever - and then go in for verbal "kill". Starting a silly row, then lapsing into "I'm a victim of your aggression".?

It's wearing.

MissAdventure

I feel neither one way nor the other about being smacked.
I'm aware that I "should" feel terrible about it, but I don't.

Perhaps if the rest of my childhood was terrible, I might do, but it wasn't.

The ex spoke about his dad blacking his eye on Christmas day, then all of the family eating in silence whilst his dads AC/DC music blared out at full volume.

During my childhood years (50's/early 60s), it was absolutely normal to be smacked.

Even the teachers did it.

I can't say that had much impact either way.

I keep reading that if people are abused as children, they go on to abuse. I went the opposite way. Never in a million years would I have treated my child like I was treated. I realise that it is not always the case of course. I've never understood anyone wanting to put another human being through the horrors of abuse.

I couldn't trust mine as far as I could throw him in terms of faithfulness.
He said "you know what I'm like; I can't resist an ego boost".

Smacking and such like were pretty normal back then and yes teachers did it. Beating a child up wasn't.

My ex adored his children, and they him.
They were a credit to their mum and him.
He was a very unconventional parent, though, to put it politely.

It’s crystal clear to me that the woman I now refer to as my late father’s widow knew exactly what she was doing when she swindled her mother-in-law, my grandmother, out of her money and properties. Because this woman had also been abusive to me, I took my grandmother’s side and fought through the courts to protect her interests. I have since come to the conclusion that this abuser is a narcissist who took very strong exception to something my grandmother said, and never forgave her for it.

Kate1949

Smacking and such like were pretty normal back then and yes teachers did it. Beating a child up wasn't.

No, beating up a child has never been normal.