Harry: "I want my Father back. I want my brother back"

I agree imaround a good professional wouldn't diagnose someone they'd never met, but as with all professions, there are good and bad out there.

It's good that you benefited from therapy Onward. I wonder if your son feels the NHS failed him because he wasn't validated. Maybe instead of accepting everything he said, he was encouraged to question his own thought processes and that was something he was unable/not prepared to do.

It's worrying to think that there are parents deeply concerned about their children having therapy, for fear of their children being turned against them. Like you, I'd have found it hard to believe that when sectioned your son was told by the hospital that it was all your fault, but it does make you wonder doesn't it.

As you say Allsorts, anyone with addiction issues has to want to give it up and the first step is accepting that they have a problem and need to take responsibility for it.

The same goes for therapy. It needs to be wanted and in order to be successful, there needs to be a desire for a positive outcome.

I can't watch Harry either.

Someone who has known H all his life, no idea who or where, said recently that Meghan was the only person who could ever get Harry to do something he didn't want, I think we can guess how. He was always difficult throughout his life, even before his mother died and certainly afterwards, and his bad behaviour was never his responsibility, as his book is clearly demonstrating.

Thanks Allsorts, that's true. They have to make their own decisions as adults , take ownership of those- and of the consequences of those decisions. (which I doubt my son , Harry or many others actually do)

How long would I want to be in a room with Harry? 0 minutes! His entitled, poor me, toxic, hateful attitude would be too much!

Yes my son does feel failed by the NHS Smileless. Indeed I feel failed by them. Who could know that the very people I trusted with my sons life when he was at his most vulnerable would use that to put a wedge in?

Why do therapists and MH workers do this? Yes, I've read that its happening to younger kids. What on earth is going on when a therapist splits a family by telling a teen or young person that everything that happened is their family's fault! I dont see that casting blame is helpful, even if it is true.

If a MH therapist tells someone "its not you, you're fine but your family is nuts" I guess its validating for the person having therapy in the short term, but in the long term its not helping because who thrives without their family? There will always be some incomplete thing that didn't get worked out .

A lot of MH therapy yes you have to own the problem and be dedicated to engaging with the therapy. Even then it doesnt always work. Yes, it needs to be wanted and m son did not want to put the work in because "it was everyone elses fault, but his".

He has remained bitter, he denies having any MH problems and says I made it all up- yet he had many MH professionals visit him in his (barricaded, dark room) over a period of time before they made the decision that he would benefit from a section to force him to get treatment. At the time of him going into hospital he had not spoken or engaged with us for many weeks or been seen out of his room. I had been taking him food because he became a shell of himself. We knew he was self harming but don't know what caused him to retreat dramatically.

I believed I was doing the right thing. We thought he might kill himself. The silence was a hostile silence, so that was also a concern after it went on man weeks without resolve. I think he must have been weeing in containers and pouring it out of the window because he was not even going to the bathroom. I could not get him to engage. The only real change before this was my mother estranging from everyone and leaving the area without a forwarding address. They had been close. Although, equally something could have happened in his personal life or he may already have taken drugs that altered his perception of us.

What is the world coming to when kids are told its all their parents fault. Of course, most of us do our best but make mistakes with the best intentions- but we cannot go back and pop them in our tummy for a second go or change the past, however much we would like to.

to you all

Narcissistic victim syndrome is gaining a lot of attention, as is complex ptsd.

If narcissistic victim syndrome were to make it into the DSM, technically that would imply a diagnosis to an abusive person which is probably why it isn't there yet.

It must be difficult for therapists meeting an adult and knowing full well what the symptoms they display amounts too.

Especially when diagnosing someone with something like Borderline Personality Disorder knowing the direct cause is emotional, physical, sexual abuse or otherwise being seriously afraid or neglected as a child, usually by close family.

It's strange to me that someone can be diagnosed with something like that without it automatically leading to repercussions for their abuser... Although I think it can be used as evidence in court against them

Also being diagnosed with something like Borderline Personality Disorder, is it really their fault they cannot navigate life well as an adult?

Meghan was the only person who could ever get Harry to do something he didn't want, I think we can guess how.

Just when you think it can't get any worse...

Maybe I'm guessing wrong. Maybe you can enlighten us.

You can pretty much look at any Harry and Meghan thread and see people talking about their mental health in such a way it seems to suggest that mental health issues are the sufferers own fault and they could just stop doing it like its mind over matter rather than a brain that has been rewired by past pain and trauma

That was a long sentence

But hurting others if you have mental health issues is your responsibility... blame is pointless and only serves to drive sufferers deeper

My mother is responsible for the work I have needed to do on myself because of her treatment of me. She is responsible for never getting help. She is responsible for her behaviour...

Do I blame her?

No.

Someone hurt her first.

Cycles

It's hard to know what to say Onward, you really have been through the mill with your ES. I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like for you, with him closed in his room and barely eating, you must have been beside yourself with worry.

Your mother estranging herself would of course have impacted on you all and especially your son if they were very close. If only he could have talked to you about that at the time, that may have prevented the escalation of his problems.

You were doing the right thing by involving MH professionals, what else could you do? It's terrible though that you and your son were let down when he was told that it was all due to his family.

Finding a good counsellor or therapist is key and that's sometimes simply a question of finding someone you're comfortable with, but there are bad ones out there and if it's your child whose seeing one and you're not there, how can you know if their being helpful or destructive?

VioletSky

That was a long sentence

But hurting others if you have mental health issues is your responsibility... blame is pointless and only serves to drive sufferers deeper

My mother is responsible for the work I have needed to do on myself because of her treatment of me. She is responsible for never getting help. She is responsible for her behaviour...

Do I blame her?

No.

Someone hurt her first.

Cycles

The cycles are a terrible thing VS

It's good you don't blame her. I used to blame my Mother, but I know she is very ill- and knowing that her actions are the actions of someone who was abused and ill themselves helps me to be kind. I also know she doesn't realize how ill she is. There is a condition called anosognosia which may apply.

The cycles are a terrible thing yes they are Onward but they can be broken.

I'd not come across that condition before and can see how it can help provide a better understanding of why some people do the things they do.

In some ways, estrangement can actually be a kindness.

I'm not religious by any means but I do believe that we all carry some sort of karmic load.

She can't hurt me anymore which ultimately was a way she was harming herself.

Once, she was at a low point in life and I was almost at the point of estranging and she said something awful and I immediately pulled her up. She had this moment of clarity and told me that a long time ago someone had told her, if she didn't do something about her sharp tongue she would eventually lose everyone.

I think part of her carries the shame of her behaviour. Of course, the next time I spoke to her she back pedalled and the last conversation never happened and I was just her imaginative crazy lying daughter...

It just gave me the clue that on some levels she knows exactly what she is doing and exactly how ashamed she would be should she allow herself to feel it.

I wonder if anyone posting about how awful Harry is and how it is all his fault has ever considered how different to theirs his family circumstances are. I don't suppose there is anyone posting on GN who was married simply so they could produce an heir. I don't suppose there is any one whose second child was born in case anything happened to the first. Most children know even if their parents are divorced that they were loved and wanted by both of them when they were together. If your mother then dies and your father marries the woman who was involved in the breakdown of their marriage, however nice she may be you are going to feel pretty sick. Especially if all the details are all over the papers.Pretending that any of this is the sort of life any other family lives is just buying into the myth the Queen Mother created, they have never been like the rest of us.

It's not that he's been affected by his upbringing that's an issue for many, it's how he's chosen to deal with it. Making personal conversations public, trashing and seeking to embarrass and humiliate his family to the world, and then saying that he hopes for/wants reconciliation. That the ball's in their court.

Those of us whose who didn't give our children all of that to deal with and have been estranged, are still estranged.

I could never say that our son's estrangement of us was in any way a kindness but not having him and his wife in our lives has saved us from additional upset and trauma.

I was told I was never wanted

If I am going to be sympathetic, I think becoming a parent yourself does bring into focus how difficult it is to understand why a parent can't unconditionally love their children (my case not everyone's)

eazybee

Someone who has known H all his life, no idea who or where, said recently that Meghan was the only person who could ever get Harry to do something he didn't want, I think we can guess how. He was always difficult throughout his life, even before his mother died and certainly afterwards, and his bad behaviour was never his responsibility, as his book is clearly demonstrating.

Implying M wrote the book, not H of his own free will?

Oh dear.

Jane when you're a parent it's incomprehensible to understand that some parents don't seem to be able to love their children unconditionally.

Your relationship with them maybe over but the love never dies.

Norah

eazybee

Someone who has known H all his life, no idea who or where, said recently that Meghan was the only person who could ever get Harry to do something he didn't want, I think we can guess how. He was always difficult throughout his life, even before his mother died and certainly afterwards, and his bad behaviour was never his responsibility, as his book is clearly demonstrating.

Implying M wrote the book, not H of his own free will?

Oh dear.

Difficult to know how that would work as the ghost writer's known method is to make hours of recordings of the subject speaking, take them away and write using the actual words on the recording. I mean I know Meghan is an actress but could she actually do Harry's voice?

Er, no.
Simply stating that Harry was always difficult, as a child, a teenager, a young man and a technically middle-aged one.
Incapable of recognising his own inadequacies. So not blaming Meghan for this debacle.

DiamondLily

It was cruel to pressure those kids to walk behind that coffin, while strangers yelled, howled and gawped at them.🙁

I think the thinking was “The more the merrier” as it were. There was genuine fear that Charles would be subjected to abuse by the hysterical mourning public, so the presence of the much loved boys was a buffer against this.

The boys were pressured to walk in the funeral cortège, so William lied ?

Glorianny

Meghan Markle was not estranged from her father until the wedding. So quite how you can accuse her of being estranged and then responsible for further estrangement it's difficult to understand. H has said if she hadn't married him she would still be in contact with her father.
I don't think any of us can appreciate how difficult it could be to have a family member make money and sell private information to tabloid newspapers.
What is really funny is that some posters condemning H&M for trading on their connections and revealing family secrets apparently think they should just put up with the behaviour of Thomas Markle and reconcile with him. Shouldn't then Charles and William do the same with H&M?

A few photographs of Thomas Markle looking at a book on Britain and being measured for a suit hardly tally with the outpourings of H&M.
The poor man had been completely ignored by them. Imagine never even meeting your son in law to be!
To be sure, Harry is no gentleman. I was estranged from my violent father, but my husband still made the effort to visit him to tell him of his intentions, as he believed it was the right thing to do.

I can understand him wanting what he says but not sure it is possible however he goes about it. All started with what happened with his mum and how she was treated. I don't trust the "Establishment" in his respect. Think we should hear him out. thesis the first time I have written anything on a M and M thread ever because I am fed up with the constant bashing and here people are having different POV.

Yes Callistemon21 I think it would be good for him to do therapy.

Glorianny

Norah

eazybee

Someone who has known H all his life, no idea who or where, said recently that Meghan was the only person who could ever get Harry to do something he didn't want, I think we can guess how. He was always difficult throughout his life, even before his mother died and certainly afterwards, and his bad behaviour was never his responsibility, as his book is clearly demonstrating.

Implying M wrote the book, not H of his own free will?

Oh dear.

Difficult to know how that would work as the ghost writer's known method is to make hours of recordings of the subject speaking, take them away and write using the actual words on the recording. I mean I know Meghan is an actress but could she actually do Harry's voice?

Precisely what I thought. I assumed Harry was on his own on the writing of his "Truth, with help from the ghost writer.