Near Estrangment but confused about something

MarieElla

Gosh, there's a lot there.
It would help to hear your daughter's version as she's obviously blaming you for a lot of things.
Maybe she resents you for always getting the presents just right when she couldn't.
Her marriage breaking down will have had an enormous effect on her and you being friendly eith your ex son in law may be seen as a betrayal.

Yes, I think you are right, I think she resents the presents thing.

She also, I think, rejects how her room was when she was young; I had always put decorations and stuffed animals about.

I think that stems from the friend who basically had a plain room with a mattress on the floor( I went inside the house once to pick up my daughter) and that friend, as I mentioned became her best friend she looked up to for being wild, drinking, tatoos, etc. and I am sure the friend mocked me over my daughters thoughtful room filled with stuffed animals, a decent bed and nice furniture.

My daughter, before her husband left, was actually excited about decorating her son's room, even accepted ideas I had like making it into a Toy Story room or a Disney Cars room. But then after he left, she started saying she never intended and that it didn't need anything, and left the room plain.

So ok, if that's what she wants her kids to live in, I understand although I know my son enjoyed his Star Wars themed room and I know, at the time, my daughter loved her animal stuffies room. So I feel bad for my grandkids in a way, seems they deserve something but idk, it's not my call.

And I agree, if I had been friendly with her ex, I could see that as betrayal, but the fact is, I shunned him, literally hated him after what he did.

But then she decided after awhile, I was being vindictive and petty for feeling that way!!!

I really can't win here.

Between the examples my husband set in her youth, the toxic friend and then her husbands betrayal, this is the result.

Seemed my husbands actions didn't really split us. Even the friends actions, had some impact, but didn't really split us. But the third thing, her husbands betrayal, I think it destroyed her as a person and that's when all the bad influences finally took.

It hurts. But it hurts more when I know she's trying to effect how my grandson feels, when he used to feel so different towards me but now he's more distant because of it all.

Bad enough her, now him. I just hang on to the idea maybe he will see through it and still love his Gma.

As far as any money down the road, I think I've almost decided if I am the last man standing, I won't be leaving anything to her. Even my husband was on the fence, saying maybe we should just leave to the grandkids, that is, if they don't alienate from us because of her.

All this is assuming things go well and there is anything left, of course. Meanwhile, I'm thinking of spending what we have on our own needs these days, even stuff we might not really need, like I don't want to do any cosmetic surgery but might look into some of those non evasive laser stuff for wrinkles and such.

In other words, not sacrifice something that would make me feel better for her.

Which is the exact opposite of what I would have done before.

She used to say, don't reward bad behavior when it came to always being forgiving to my husband.

I don't think I should reward her for her bad behavior either.

Smileless2012

In response to the question you've asked again @ 01.52 Starfire, about false childhood memories or inaccurate perceptions as well as others projecting their childhood experiences, these are sadly recurring themes where there's estrangement.

This is our experience with our ES 'remembering' events that his wife experienced during her childhood and early adulthood.

I was at one time a good friend of her mother before they met and it was because of our friendship that they did meet, so I was aware of the dysfunctional environment she was raised in and the abuse she witnessed and was occasionally subjected too.

It remains as inexplicable to us as it is for you, how our son can 'remember' things that never happened and seemingly 'forget' so much of what the first 27 years of his life was actually like.

Where this is the case, trying to resolve the problem really is akin to banging your head against a brick wall, because unless the AC in question is prepared to communicate sensibly, which involves listening as well as being heard, there's nothing you can do.

In a husband/wife and/or living together relationship, this level of projection is itself abusive when it results in the AC severing contact with their parents and in many cases their entire family.

When it happens with someone the AC is living with, it's usually so the one they're living with has them all to themselves, has total control and becomes the centre of the AC's world, and often begins with being jealous of the close family bond that exists and a desire to destroy it.

From what you've posted it looks as if your D's friend's jealousy of your D's family, despite the issues that you all faced could be the cause of her projecting. Your D will I'm sure have talked about her father shouting at you and the impact this had and this may have been the catalyst for what followed.

You've said that you've had counselling/therapy in the past but I was wondering if, as we go into a new year, this maybe something you could reconsider but perhaps with a different goal in mind.

Rather than trying to find ways of 'fixing' this, counselling or therapy could help you to begin to not only accept that there's nothing you can do unless your D is willing, but also accept the situation for what it is.

Make the most of the time you still get to spend with your GC. Accept that you did your best which is all any of us can do and remember that it's very easy for others to say what they would have done, and what you should have done, in a very difficult environment with a young family which they were fortunate never to have experienced .

Thank you for your views on this. I am so sorry this has also happened to you. It's as if someone comes along and just transforms your family life and your past into something it never was. It's just so frustrating and sad on so many levels; it takes all your good memories and trashes them, as thought they never existed.

Then it takes your present and future, too, from you.

Just a mere 6 years ago, I was on top of the world. My grandson couldn't get enough of me, my daughter and son in law were excited to have me be a part of many of the things happening, in fact so much so sometimes I would use an excuse here and there to bow out, for two reasons; one, because I needed some time as most do for personal things and two, because I didn't want to be that MIL that's always in everyone's hair. I didn't want my son in law to have one of those.

Well, guess I should have been more selfish I guess.

I do wish I could go back. Not allow my husbands unfounded accusations to not be challenged.

If only I knew he was projecting his own parent's relationship onto me. I was clueless and innocent, got married way too young and thought all marriages were like my parents.

You know, my mom saw something in my daughter but couldn't pin it down. This was around the time my daughter was complaining to me that my mom insulted her friend one day during a visit....

For some strange reason, my daughter wanted her friend to meet my mom. NOW I get it, the friend wanted to evaluate my mother.

My mom made the mistake of telling the friend she had a pretty face. The friend took this as a jab at her weight, since this friend has been morbidly obese since high school.

My daughter complained to me that it was mean. I do not think my mom was being mean, I think she was looking to compliment something I suppose. I told my mom and she seemed surprised too.

So later in time, my mom noticed my daughter had a very sullen attitude when around her....and neither one of us made the connection, at all, but now I believe my daughter had resented my mom ever since.

Of course, I didn't ask my daughter about this because that would be "paranoid" and what's the point anyway, my mom has been gone for quite awhile now, so it's pointless to bring up.

Now I wonder if the friend also ruined my daughter and my mom's relationship too.

At any rate, again, my mom was alive to see my daughter married and my daughter seemed ok with her grandparents.

So really, I think despite it all, we all were ok until the husband betrayed her so deeply like he did.

So Smileless2012, doesn't it seem so unfair for other people to come into our lives like this and ruin them?

I feel for you, being a victim of this same sort of thing.

I do not understand why this happens and usually to people who do not deserve it.

Starfire57. I have worked my way through your extremely lengthy posts, (I personally find such long posts daunting and don’t normally bother to read them, but for some reason, I looked at yours!)
I can’t find any way to answer you. That’s if you even want an answer! As far as i can see, you post to let off steam , more than wanting answers and if that helps you, all well and good. For me, I am totally confused and have no idea what to say! Perhaps I should just be quiet and go away!

Thank you Starfire, I hope that it's helped knowing that you and I have had very similar experiences.

You're spot on when you say it's like someone has changed your family and the life you had into something you never had, and your memories of things that never existed.

I understand that for you it also feels as of your present and future has been taken too. It was like that for us too for many years but eventually we came to realise that those haven't been taken, they've been changed into something completely different.

This has happened for your D too. The life she thought she was going to have was ripped apart when her H left her for another woman.

You say in relation to your marriage and how your H treated you that you wish you could go back, but of course you can't but you can go forward and if he still makes them, challenge his unfounded allegations and challenge your D's too .

Whatever the truth of this, its a very toxic environment for the daughter and grandchildren. They need distance. Leave the past where is and don’t let it influence now.

I think this is one of those situations that cannot be helped. Denialism is a real thing. Any advice or comment that doesn't fit is just disregarded, glossed over.or reframed. That's why there is no anger. We truly cannot help this situation. You cannot help someone reason themselves out of a position they didn't reason themselves into

If there is an angry response that means there is doubt or shame involved. Either someone knows they are actually the one to blame or they fear that may be the case and maybe reason can get through.

When there is no angry response just a systematic rejection of advice or comments it's because there is no ability for self reflection at all which can become very frustrating when trying to help

What we are seeing is a defence mechanism. Sadly very few ways to overcome that and I think estrangement may be one of them if and when a situation is more uncomfortable than simply seeing yourself as the victim/blameless

It's truly sad but again, not deliberate on the part of the person whose mind copes this way. Even therapy would likely do little to help

Crossstitchfan

Starfire57. I have worked my way through your extremely lengthy posts, (I personally find such long posts daunting and don’t normally bother to read them, but for some reason, I looked at yours!)
I can’t find any way to answer you. That’s if you even want an answer! As far as i can see, you post to let off steam , more than wanting answers and if that helps you, all well and good. For me, I am totally confused and have no idea what to say! Perhaps I should just be quiet and go away!

Well, thank you for at least reading and taking an interest. This whole thing is exasperating and at this point I really do give up, other than I am hoping my grandkids will at least love me a bit in the end.

I mean, I think she tore it with me, I see someone I continue to reach out to and get rejected every time.

Even the best mom's in the world have limits.

The whole unconditional love thing is a farce. We do need something back. It doesn't have to be equal, or large, just something. The only unconditional part is that we still have love for them, even if we don't like them anymore and could do without their presence and constant criticism.

Smileless2012

Thank you Starfire, I hope that it's helped knowing that you and I have had very similar experiences.

You're spot on when you say it's like someone has changed your family and the life you had into something you never had, and your memories of things that never existed.

I understand that for you it also feels as of your present and future has been taken too. It was like that for us too for many years but eventually we came to realise that those haven't been taken, they've been changed into something completely different.

This has happened for your D too. The life she thought she was going to have was ripped apart when her H left her for another woman.

You say in relation to your marriage and how your H treated you that you wish you could go back, but of course you can't but you can go forward and if he still makes them, challenge his unfounded allegations and challenge your D's too .

Oh my, you really hit it on the head. It is so sad for us, and what could we have done, shielded and hidden our kids from the world and all others? Nope. It is just horrible luck is what it is.

For me, I cannot believe my relationship with my daughter withstood so much (husband and her friend) and came out so wonderful,........ and then with one cruel twist of fate, all of that was torn down.

My ex son in law did rip her apart. Even a new boyfriend now that she has had for the last couple years didn't help. I guess nothing will, permanent damage is what's left.

Good advice on the husband. I do challenge him a lot now, and in front of my son and daughter. But it might be too little too late, you know? And wouldn't it be my luck if I got too harsh that she would take his side now. I wouldn't be surprised at anything anymore.

So, I try to just keep it cool most the time, unless something does need to be addressed.

Especially the assumptions about my own motives and feelings on things; I am tired of being judged, really tired.

It's pretty upsetting when people just think they know you and assume the worst. They have no idea who I am or what I feel....maybe idk, if they really knew, the guilt would eat them up. So we can't have that.

InRainbows

I think this is one of those situations that cannot be helped. Denialism is a real thing. Any advice or comment that doesn't fit is just disregarded, glossed over.or reframed. That's why there is no anger. We truly cannot help this situation. You cannot help someone reason themselves out of a position they didn't reason themselves into

If there is an angry response that means there is doubt or shame involved. Either someone knows they are actually the one to blame or they fear that may be the case and maybe reason can get through.

When there is no angry response just a systematic rejection of advice or comments it's because there is no ability for self reflection at all which can become very frustrating when trying to help

What we are seeing is a defence mechanism. Sadly very few ways to overcome that and I think estrangement may be one of them if and when a situation is more uncomfortable than simply seeing yourself as the victim/blameless

It's truly sad but again, not deliberate on the part of the person whose mind copes this way. Even therapy would likely do little to help

She has shown anger towards me. Now, I feel the same but with the hurt too, because I still have love for her, that I am sure she doesn't feel towards me. She's happy when I am hurt, makes her feel powerful, the power she did not have with her husband.

I mean, he literally told me he didn't love her anymore. She has no power with him and she needs that to cope and I am the scapegoat.

It's cruel. And uncalled for.

Denial is one thing. The truth is another.

Allsorts

Whatever the truth of this, its a very toxic environment for the daughter and grandchildren. They need distance. Leave the past where is and don’t let it influence now.

True, my daughter is creating a toxic environment by constantly criticizing her mother to her children.

Leave them alone then. However I think you want control and do not appear to care about your daughters feelings, it is all about you. I feel sorry for your daughter. I would move countries if I were her.

So why would her ex tell YOU he didn't love her anymore?
If he was confiding in you about thete relationship, you were being disloyal to your daughter.

Allsorts

Leave them alone then. However I think you want control and do not appear to care about your daughters feelings, it is all about you. I feel sorry for your daughter. I would move countries if I were her.

Judgemental much?

MarieElla

So why would her ex tell YOU he didn't love her anymore?
If he was confiding in you about thete relationship, you were being disloyal to your daughter.

Well, actually, there was no discussion of their relationship at all........I was trying to advocate for her. I was messaging him, as he did try to reach out to my husband and me..... I literally begged him to reconsider. To value the love he and she had for each other and not throw it away for lust.

To go to marriage counseling and we'd pay for it.

THAT's when he said he didn't love her anymore. You think that didn't hurt me to the core?

The idea of that kind of pain inflicted on your child? But now, she's paid that forward and inflicted it on me. Not fair.

. Just listen to yourself and keep busy, let her be.

Allsorts

. Just listen to yourself and keep busy, let her be.

No, not gonna give up on the grandkids just yet. They are the only reason I still even talk to her. I mean, I love her, it hurts, but I am not one to put up with jerks. She's being a jerk. But grandkids are attached to her, so I won't give up on them, they are angels and very loving towards me...unless the bad things she says finally works on them, perhaps it won't, I hope, I mean, kids are a lot smarter these days.

Starfire57

MarieElla

So why would her ex tell YOU he didn't love her anymore?
If he was confiding in you about thete relationship, you were being disloyal to your daughter.

Well, actually, there was no discussion of their relationship at all........I was trying to advocate for her. I was messaging him, as he did try to reach out to my husband and me..... I literally begged him to reconsider. To value the love he and she had for each other and not throw it away for lust.

To go to marriage counseling and we'd pay for it.

THAT's when he said he didn't love her anymore. You think that didn't hurt me to the core?

The idea of that kind of pain inflicted on your child? But now, she's paid that forward and inflicted it on me. Not fair.

Marriages break up every day of the week, my first one did, so she really needs to get over it. Of course she was upset, but she should consider her children and stop frothing around taking it out on everyone else. 🤷‍♀️

No one knows what goes on behind closed doors, and he decided he’d had enough, and left her. It happens.

If she carries on like this she will damage her children emotionally, which isn’t good parenting.

Perhaps she should think about that. 🙄

You admit that your daughter grew up in an abusive household. I think she is entitled to feel upset about that, and reflect on how it has impacted her life. She is also entitled to keep her children away from the woman that she holds somewhat responsible for that abuse.

For those who don't believe in recovering repressed memories of abuse: www.ptsduk.org/what-is-ptsd/complex-ptsd/

Please read the page because there is a lot of good information there. But for convenience here's some of the info about memory.

"If someone is exposed to an intensely fearful and traumatic situation, their body and mind ‘suspends’ normal operations such as digestion, memory processing, skin healing etc and it copes as well as it can in order to survive, perhaps getting ready to run, fight or freeze to the spot.

This means that the mind does not produce a memory for this traumatic event in the ‘normal’ way – and if this is a repeated, continuous or multiple traumas, there are many memories that are ‘unprocessed’.

Under normal/non-traumatic circumstances, when information comes into our memory system (from sensory input such as what we can see, hear, taste, and smell), it needs to be changed into a form that the system can cope with, so that it can be stored. If the encoding doesn’t take place due to repeated traumas – the memory can’t be processed. Instead, it is stored randomly, in pieces, in a variety of places within the brain.

Eventually, when the mind presents any of the ‘memories’ of the traumas for ‘filing’, or it is triggered by a smell, a place, or a person etc, it does not recognise them as memories. As it understands, ‘the brain is in the middle of the dangerous event – it is not ‘outside’ looking in at this event, and therefore the entire system is not easily subject to rational control.’ These flashbacks are incredibly distressing. Reliving the traumas as if they were happening RIGHT NOW. The elements such as the facts of what happened, the emotions associated with the trauma and the sensations touch, taste, sound, vision, movement, and smell can be presented by the mind as real time information. They may also present as nightmares, and intrusive unwanted memories."

Repressed memories of abuse coming to the surface is in itself a traumatic experience and I'm not aware that anyone here has said they don't believe that this can happen.

Unity

You admit that your daughter grew up in an abusive household. I think she is entitled to feel upset about that, and reflect on how it has impacted her life. She is also entitled to keep her children away from the woman that she holds somewhat responsible for that abuse.

You are literally blaming the victim here.

User138562

For those who don't believe in recovering repressed memories of abuse: www.ptsduk.org/what-is-ptsd/complex-ptsd/

Please read the page because there is a lot of good information there. But for convenience here's some of the info about memory.

"If someone is exposed to an intensely fearful and traumatic situation, their body and mind ‘suspends’ normal operations such as digestion, memory processing, skin healing etc and it copes as well as it can in order to survive, perhaps getting ready to run, fight or freeze to the spot.

This means that the mind does not produce a memory for this traumatic event in the ‘normal’ way – and if this is a repeated, continuous or multiple traumas, there are many memories that are ‘unprocessed’.

Under normal/non-traumatic circumstances, when information comes into our memory system (from sensory input such as what we can see, hear, taste, and smell), it needs to be changed into a form that the system can cope with, so that it can be stored. If the encoding doesn’t take place due to repeated traumas – the memory can’t be processed. Instead, it is stored randomly, in pieces, in a variety of places within the brain.

Eventually, when the mind presents any of the ‘memories’ of the traumas for ‘filing’, or it is triggered by a smell, a place, or a person etc, it does not recognise them as memories. As it understands, ‘the brain is in the middle of the dangerous event – it is not ‘outside’ looking in at this event, and therefore the entire system is not easily subject to rational control.’ These flashbacks are incredibly distressing. Reliving the traumas as if they were happening RIGHT NOW. The elements such as the facts of what happened, the emotions associated with the trauma and the sensations touch, taste, sound, vision, movement, and smell can be presented by the mind as real time information. They may also present as nightmares, and intrusive unwanted memories."

I am not sure if all that applies since I was the one being verbally abused . She has no abuse memories to start with to repress.
Even if me being yelled at all the time scared her, that isn't abuse. It isn't great to witness, but it isn't abuse upon her.

And even that, I have to question. Not one time during her childhood did she express any sort of fear, whether in her facial expressions or words.

Tell truth half the time the kids didn't even notice....I never escalated the events....in fact pretty much either just said ok to him or would leave the room. In other words there was no time where it was a case of typical having a yelling match, or a type of typical scary fight of screaming back and forth, throwing things, etc.

It was mainly him degrading me in front of the kids, like I didn't do things the way he thought I should, I was stupid, I lied, etc...I left the light on in the garage type stuff.

I think it didn't help that he is one of those people with a booming low voice....one time a neighbor asked me what my husband was yelling about when I was outside and when I went into the house he was on the phone in a normal conversation with a work friend. He's just a loud person to start with.

But yes he always degraded me ,which even without yelling, caused an impression on ny kids I believe.

Look, I appreciate many of the comments here.

I am in bizzaro land with all this, the Twilight Zone. While yes things were not great the way I was treated, the idea I allowed or did any kind of abuse to the kids I loved more than anyone or anything is sickening to me and so far from the truth its almost laughable.

Its like her friend just convinced her and this friend had so many issues with her weight (morbidly obese ), sexuality(bi?) religion ( Catholic turned Wiccan) and alcohol/drug use

If not for my daughter getting ulcerative colitis, I am guessing alcohol and drugs would also be a problem right now. But she can't overdue either because of it. But she did before.

I found out the friend introduced pot and whisky to my daughter in the last year of high school.

I thought their sleepovers were movies and popcorn.

My daughter hid it well and at 18 years old I trusted her.

And I thought she followed my example as a parent who was a tea drinker. I tried alcohol when first married and decided, I just didn't like it. I think its unhealthy.

That alone shows parents teachings get completely ignored sometimes.
Yet, we still get the blame.

I am sorry to say I think this post is not genuine it is purely to disrupt.

I have never seen anyone deflect so much. No introspection, no reflection, no acknowledgement of any opinion different from your own.

Everyone else is wrong and you are right.

You sound so much like an elderly woman I know, so much.

And your daughter’s friend was ‘not like us’. Come on!

I think Allsorts is correct.