Forums for estranged adult children

Smileless2012

I answered InRainbows question which was For what reasons did others have children IA.

You obtusely deflected from discussing the heart of the matter, the notion that children owe something to their parents (which is a majority opinion held by parents posting on this thread), by offering an empty answer.

Our reasons for having children was the same as yours and I would think for the majority of parents.

Rainbows was disagreeing with the majority opinion (see DogWhisperer and fancythat) that children owe something to their parents.

Of course children owe nothing to their parents.

Regardless, children 'owing' is not in the link, is it?

"Of course children owe nothing to their parents."

Others on here would heartily disagree.

You named two posters IA who are expressing their opinions and not a majority opinion held by parents posting on this thread and there was nothing empty about the answer I gave to InRainbows question. I can see though that it doesn't fit with your view that the majority of parents believe parents are owed something by their children.

Others on here would heartily disagree which they're entitled to do IA.

Smileless2012

^there likely won't even be anything to "take on the chin" as they fostered a loving and healthy home for their children^ but that isn't a guarantee of not being estranged is it IA.

Not all who estrange came from dysfunctional, abusive, toxic family environments due to narcissistic parents.

Interesting that you say most children of narcissists have a hyper-fragile ego as that is a narcissistic trait which as well as not providing coping mechanisms to deal with being imperfect and/or making mistakes, is also a core feature of a covert or vulnerable narcissist.

Of course it's better to support victim of abuse InRainbows; asking questions is not being unsupportive.

Our reasons for having children was the same as yours and I would think for the majority of parents.

I would like to address this. Would it be fair to say that some children coming from homes with an abuser of this type come out the same or similar and some do not? In that case would the existence of support forums show that victims are seeking to avoid becoming like their parents? Should we not be more worried about those who experienced abusive upbringings who don't recognise that, remove themselves from it and seek support to heal?

As I've already said InRainbows I have no experience of forums for AC who've estranged abusive parents but the links from Reddit that have been posted on GN over the years in the main, have not shown that victims are seeking to avoid becoming like their parents, they have been as described by the OP.

We should be worried about anyone who has experienced and continues to experience abuse who doesn't recognise it remove themselves from it and seek support.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

IssendaAcolyte
You do not know me . Typical of people like you . So I am so horrible to around am I. 🦆🦆🦆🦆you.
People like you always crawl out of the woodwork when new estrangement threads appear .

I think you'll find that it's 'There are none so blind who will not see' InRainbows but nice try.

IssendaiAcolyte

*"Of course children owe nothing to their parents."*

Others on here would heartily disagree.

Of course. People disagree often.

However, I assert adult children owe their parents nothing.

Smileless2012

I think you'll find that it's 'There are none so blind who will not see' InRainbows but nice try.

Yes, that is the one I was thinking of.

I still do not understand the ire here towards estranged children even though as you say some estrange for no reason. The people sharing on that forum clearly have good reason whether you choose to read and empathise or not. So please could you help me understand why you believe those forums are a bad place as I don't see anything as described as a non estranged person.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ire towards estranged children really InRainbows I haven't seen intense anger, wrath or fury expressed about estranged children.

I haven't said forums for estranged children are a bad place, I have merely commented on links that have been provided here on GN from Reddit.

Well, given the thread itself it is hard not to presume bias.

On the topic of politics I am blessed in life, I have wonderful relationships with my children and we don't agree on all topics of course. I think that has a lot to do with our communication styles. With good communication styles, you can sense honesty and integrity and the desire to have a say without the other person feeling in any way dismissed or mocked. There is no hidden meaning or shrouded barbs. Just an honest discussion.

Political parties are often having good intentions or outcomes with different belief systems behind them but sometimes certain representatives are a bit more extreme. If family are supporting a public figure who is mocking and derisive, always believes they are right, has demonstrated bigoted views and cannot accept fault or accountability then perhaps that is their communication style too. And that is the root of estrangement.

From reading just a small amount of what is posted there that seems to be the biggest issue. Communication.

And when we speak to others that is what we are looking for isn't it in relationships? Good communication. It always surprises me how quickly you can get to know a person's character by how they communicate to others, how willing they are to listen and consider a different view or if they have views to share themselves or their communication relies simply on shutting the other person down or taking control.

Respect is so important in relationships and in communication. Those that demand it whilst giving none themselves do not deserve it and I don't the title of parent or child brings any by itself.

Summerlove

*and kids are encouraged to estrange for even the most trivial reasons. "My parents voted for Donald Trump" is a common one*

First of all these are adults. Not kids, not children. Adults.
Secondly, someone who voted for Donald Trump and I do not have the same values or morals, so family or not I would certainly distance myself from them emotionally. Hardly trivial.

Regarding swearing, if it’s allowed on a forum, who cares? Not swearing doesn’t make someone a better more moral person.

Sorry, just having a bit of difficulty getting my head around this. 77,302,580 people voted for Trump in the last election. That's just over 22% of the population of the USA. So you would distance yourself from all of those people emotionally (if you ever met them all, which I accept would be a bit of a tall order)? You wouldn't consider, kind of, accepting that they might have had their own reasons for voting that way and just letting it go?

You wouldn't consider, kind of, accepting that they might have had their own reasons for voting that way and just letting it go?

Of course I accept that each and everyone of those people had their own reasons. I accept and acknowledge that. Where did I say I didn’t?
What I did say was that I’d distance myself emotionally from those those who did. I assumed you would understand the implied comment of if there were currently in my life. I’m not American, I thankfully don’t need to worry about that.

I do not however believe that I would have to let it go. What the MAGA movement stands for is not simply normal political divide. It’s moral. It’s their belief that they are worth more than others. It’s the twisting of religion. It’s the blatant lying, the acceptance of abuse, the refusal to allow women to make their own medical choices, the voter suppression.

None of those things are things I can accept are made in good faith. We all have free will and I would use mine to spend time with people with the same morals and values I have

I accept that it's easier to fool people than showing them they have been fooled. I accept that American education and intellectualism has been heavily under attack and disenfranchised for decades. I accept that misinformation and propaganda is a hell of a force.

Also, it's a logical fallacy to hide behind large numbers like that. A majority of Germans voted for hitler, does that suddenly make their decision and opinion correct or even worthy of consideration? No, not really. Opinions should be viewed and judged on their own merit.

And America is a huge and vastly polarizing country. Some towns are multi-ethnical while others you wouldn't want to be colored and caught in after the sun has gone down (lest you end up missing and/or hanging from a tree).

The reasons Summerlove has listed don't even scratch the surface of trump's crimes against the American people, humanity, critical thinking, and truth in general. You would need to write a very lengthy encyclopedia to properly list all the damage he's done.

Supporters of trump are either immorally evil or can't think critically (let alone think for themselves), usually both, and I get absolutely no value from having any of them close in my life. There's a good reason trump himself has said he loves the poorly educated and that smart people don't like him.

I think that both of you are looking at the Trump / estrangement issue in terms which are far too black-and-white. Politics in Western democracies is a complicated issue (unlike in dictatorships, where it's very simple; you either agree with the dictator or you disappear). I'm not in the USA, I didn't vote for anyone, so I'm watching this from the sidelines, but I can see that it's possible for a reasonable person (or parent) to vote for Trump in good faith.

For example, you might disagree with his policy on abortion but agree with his policy on gender because you think that men can never be women and vice versa. Or you might disagree with his policy on Ukraine but agree in principle with his policy of making Europeans pay more for their own defence. Or you might agree with his policy on enforcing immigration rules in principle but feel unhappy about the way he is doing it in practice. Or you might live in the Rust Belt and be so desperate for him to bring jobs back to your area that this may be the single most important issue for you that overrides everything else. The point is, it's possible to vote for Trump without being a monster, and I think it's completely wrong for children to estrange their parents on this basis.

I disagree with the notion that adult children owe their parents nothing. If that parent has provided a loving and secure childhood, constantly doing their best and frequently going without themselves (practically and financially), and if, as a result, that child has grown into a well adjusted and prosperous adult, of course they owe their parents a great deal.
And most adult children appreciate that and are happy to "repay" in terms of spending time with and supporting their parents.
However there seems to be a growing trend of adult children being happy to "take" from their parents (well into adulthood) but then drop them if they become an inconvenience

There's a good reason trump himself said he loves the poorly educated and that smart people don't like him so in terms of this discussion about estrangement, it's perfectly acceptable to estrange parents who may well have done their best for their children, who love and supported them but are poorly educated .

A great post DogWhisperer . I completely agree that using voting for Trump when considering reasons for estrangement is far too black and white. As you say it's possible to vote for Trump without being a monster and I agree that it's completely wrong for children to estrange their parents on this basis.

I wouldn't be surprised eddie if in response to your post, we see the 'children don't ask to be born' argument.

They don't of course but when their parents have done what you say perhaps rather than thinking in terms of what parents are owed, we should consider what they deserve.

Hithere

Every time estranged adults and estranged parents interact here, it ends up in civil war

Not EVERY time!

DogWhisperer

I think that both of you are looking at the Trump / estrangement issue in terms which are far too black-and-white. Politics in Western democracies is a complicated issue (unlike in dictatorships, where it's very simple; you either agree with the dictator or you disappear). I'm not in the USA, I didn't vote for anyone, so I'm watching this from the sidelines, but I can see that it's possible for a reasonable person (or parent) to vote for Trump in good faith.

For example, you might disagree with his policy on abortion but agree with his policy on gender because you think that men can never be women and vice versa. Or you might disagree with his policy on Ukraine but agree in principle with his policy of making Europeans pay more for their own defence. Or you might agree with his policy on enforcing immigration rules in principle but feel unhappy about the way he is doing it in practice. Or you might live in the Rust Belt and be so desperate for him to bring jobs back to your area that this may be the single most important issue for you that overrides everything else. The point is, it's possible to vote for Trump without being a monster, and I think it's completely wrong for children to estrange their parents on this basis.

These trumper parents aren't being estranged for simply voting for trump, they're being estranged because they're part of a cult, blindly following and excusing everything and anything trump does. For people with empathy and reasoning skills, it becomes incredibly frustrating to have any sort of rational conversation with these cultists, especially as trump continues to stupidly and maliciously ravage America (and even other parts of the world). A lot of these trumper parents are simply choosing trump over their own children, who may sometimes even be directly affected by his policies (or have dear loved ones who are affected).

They aren't just poorly educated, but permanently willfully ignorant. Ignoring anything said by their children by calling it "fake news", or outright dismissing it as "trump derangement syndrome".

Oh I see so the EP's you're referring too have been estranged for being cult members; for having no empathy or the ability to reason; because they're incapable of a rational conversation; for choosing trump over their own children and for being ^permanently willfully ignorant rather than poorly educated which you previously stated.

Did these flaws only surface when he was running for POTUS?

So none of those who voted for Trump and have been estranged as a result voted for the reasons sensibly referred too in DogWhisperer's post.