Missing grandaughter so much

Smileless2012

Here we ago again with supposition the father has to want to see his child. That involves making the effort to see his child, and just because he spends weekends with the OP and his D, why assume that he doesn't want too and doesn't make an effort?

Do you agree then GG65 that the mother is wrong for preventing their D from seeing her father?

If you read my post that you’ve quoted, you’ll see that I did not assume that the father does not want to see his child, but rather that I’m dubious about whether he would be able to “step up” in the event of the OP stepping back.

Do you agree then GG65 that the mother is wrong for preventing their D from seeing her father?

It’s really not an ideal situation at all. But I can understand how perception and emotion in the face of extreme stressors (loss of child support during a cost of living crisis), can lead to certain decisions being made, without jumping straight to assumptions of manipulation and control on the mother’s part. The mother certainly wouldn’t be able to just decide to stop supporting her daughter because “she doesn’t have that much money at the moment”.

In fact the mother has been the primary caregiver for the child for the past 5 years, and has been happy with contact to this point. Surely if she was “using the child as a weapon” this would be a pattern established long before now.

As a woman, and a mother of sons, this thread is really disheartening. We should really be expecting more of our sons as fathers, not colluding in the “using the child as a weapon” nonsense that only serves to vilify the mother, whilst deflecting from the father’s role in the situation.

GG65

*If the GM is facilitating contact or not is entirely irrelevant.*

No, it’s not irrelevant. The majority of parents manage to maintain a relationship with their own child without needing this level of support.

Would you rather the little girl didn't see her father?

No, but the father has to want to see his child, doesn’t he. That involves making the effort to see his child - I wonder why the OP is so involved in facilitating contact - if she stepped back, would her son step up? I’m not sure.

If a father is unable to provide suitable accommodation surely a GMs house is better than no contact?

It might be better than no contact, but it’s certainly not an ideal situation, and it’s certainly not the norm.

I take it you have had very little actual experience of parents splitting up GG65. In most cases the father moves out of the family home He then needs to find affordable accommodation.Often that is impossible and it certainly takes time. My GS now grown up always had three homes, his mum's, his dad's and my house where he stayed with his dad when his parents first separated. He continued to regard one of my bedrooms as "his" even when a teenager. I think it's probably more the "norm" than you think-but then who wants to be normal anyway?????

“In fact the mother has been the primary caregiver for the child for the past 5 years, and has been happy with contact to this point. Surely if she was “using the child as a weapon” this would be a pattern established long before” (GG65)

Pure supposition in every detail.

GG65 It might be more helpful to the discussion if you didn't accuse other posters of projection or saying accusing others of “using the children as pawns” because that is exactly what they would do or using words like hilarious about others' posts.

You know no more than anyone else on the thread other than what the OP has told us, which is that she is distressed because her son, the father of her 5 year old granddaughter, missed a maintenance payment, the mother prevented the child from visiting her GP and DF, father paid money late, mother wanted more and stopped the child visiting again.

We should really be expecting more of our sons as fathers

I agree that many fathers are failing as parents and leave mothers to struggle on their own but we don't know all the circumstances in this case. However, this man can't play his part as a father if he is prevented from seeing his child.

No projection on my part, btw, and it is insulting to suggest it.

Delila

“In fact the mother has been the primary caregiver for the child for the past 5 years, and has been happy with contact to this point. Surely if she was “using the child as a weapon” this would be a pattern established long before” (GG65)

Pure supposition in every detail.

From the OP, the mother is the primary caregiver.

From the OP, this has been the first issue with contact in 5 years.

“Using the child as a weapon” is a pattern of behaviour, not one isolated incident involving multiple factors.

Suppositions in every detail? How so?

As Yvonne hasn't been back we'll probably never know the outcome.

It might be more helpful to the discussion…

This isn’t a discussion, this is page after page after page of rank misogyny.

…if you didn't accuse other posters of projection or saying accusing others of “using the children as pawns” because that is exactly what they would do…

I didn’t though, I referred to certain fathers’ rights movements of which “using the children as pawns” seems to be their mantra.

”…or using words like hilarious about others' posts…”

I don’t think it’s appropriate for you to police my posts in this way.

You know no more than anyone else on the thread other than what the OP has told us

Exactly. But I have come to a different conclusion from you. Doesn’t make one wrong, doesn’t make the other right. It’s just a different viewpoint that I’m as entitled to express as anyone else on this thread.

Gg65

It is refreshing to see a mother of adult sons holding them responsible to their parental role

Thank you

No projection on my part, btw, and it is insulting to suggest it.

I haven’t accused anyone on this thread of projection.

I agreed with another poster that the term “using the child as weapon” made me uncomfortable due to what I perceive as projection from fathers that belong to certain fathers’ rights movements.

Maybe I should have added a disclaimer to that post, but it certainly wasn’t directed at anyone here.

GG65:

1) We don’t know how long the couple have been separated, so we don’t know how long any of this has been an issue.

2) We aren’t told whether or not this is the first issue with contact, whatever the period of time involved. Neither are we told how happy the mother has been with contact to this point.

3) The OP has not given any information regarding the child being “used as a weapon”, so there is no clue regarding patterns of behaviour.

In fact, according to the OP, this is the second time recently that the mother has withheld the child from her father for financial reasons.

We aren’t told whether that’s an established pattern.

The OP isn’t a misogynist for giving that information, and I’m not a misogynist for pointing it out.

I think most people commenting on here are saying that inability to keep up with maintenance payments should not result in withholding of contact. Contact with both parents regardless of financial issues is of paramount importance to the child (unless there are safeguarding concerns).

And loved supporting grandparents. It who knows whole story really and complex emotions as lack of in depth info. Really judgements are being made on very very little info when you read it.

Objectively

We don't know what mum's reasons are or what kind of mother she is.

What OP wants and needs is for her son and her grandaughters mother to be able to come together and co-parent effectively so that she can see her grandaughter again.

If OP takes on board insults about mum and listens to advice comparing her grandaughter to an object... then passes this on to Dad it's going to make the situation worse if Dad then starts saying all this to Mum.

Mum needs to understand that she needs to emotionally support her child by allowing access to Dad (if that is what the child wants).

Dad needs to understand he needs to financially support his child and take some of the burden of responsibility for all the travel off the OP as its a lot to ask.

Dad also needs to emotionally support his child by not calling Mum names and making accusations she treats her daughter as an object.

So I hope OP is reading this and disregards any advice along those lines

Because this child does not ever need to hear either of her parents insulted by the other side of her family as it will cause her stress during key stages of childhood development.

Perhaps there is already an element of Mum and Dad arguing over this already.

In which case both must step back from that immediately and work together in their child's best interest to prevent future issues for the child and their mental health.

Yes, contact with grandparents too, so important.

Delila

I think most people commenting on here are saying that inability to keep up with maintenance payments should not result in withholding of contact. Contact with both parents regardless of financial issues is of paramount importance to the child (unless there are safeguarding concerns).

Yes, this.

And loved supporting grandparents. It who knows whole story really and complex emotions as lack of in depth info. Really judgements are being made on very very little info when you read it.
And this.

Most posters are commenting objectively and some with the experience of professionals who may have worked with families with similar difficulties.

It really doesn't matter who is more at fault here anyway

If people think the way to resolve family issues is to be aloof, blaming, insulting and lacking in any kind of responsibility or accountability... I will guarantee you that will fail

You can't just browbeat people with how they aren't fulfilling your exact expectations and behaving exactly as you wish and expect a good relationship to come out of it

People aren't perfect, they don't have perfect mental health and they make mistakes under stress.

We want this situation resolved not made worse

Agreed, VS but we aren't actually in a position to do that. Only the parents can do that.

Yes, we need to nudge them in the right direction...

Not towards more anger and animosity

I'm so tired of seeing how badly that impacts children

At best GG65 what I quoted from your posts suggests that the father doesn't want to see his D and makes little or no effort to do so, which bearing in mind it is the child's mother who has stopped contact, I find baffling.

I agree that this is not an ideal situation and wonder why you're not prepared to say whether you think this mother is wrong for stopping contact.

Your post @ 12.09 is spot on Delia. There are a lot of responses saying that being unable to meet child support payments should not be used as an excuse reason to stop contact.

You just can't browbeat people with how they aren't fulfilling your exact expectations and behaving exactly as you wish and expect a good relationship to come out of it. Exactly VS and one of the worse ways to try and brow beat a parent, is to prevent them from seeing their child.

VioletSky, I know your advice is kindly meant, but we’re in no position to nudge the couple in any direction. The OP is distraught and came here for help. She knows the facts, we don’t, but she didn’t point the finger of blame at anyone.

It doesn’t help her to criticise her son, with whom she shares, together with his much-loved daughter , a “special bond”. It’s a delicate situation and it’s a pity some comments have been so harsh for no good reason.

This thread has been quite enlightening.

I'd no idea how arrangements were made for children of splitups/ divorce. Seems a bit unfair if both parents are not required to provide equally, but I'm not involved, so no further opinion is best. The notion that children are weapons /pawns is odd, just people doing what seems correct to them.

It seems plausible, to me, OP is too involved. I'm likely basing that on my own feelings about pushy entitled grans who want what they want for no known reason - too much of that happens to the detriment of young mums.

Maybe a good way to look at it is this:

If you wouldn't say it to the child, don't say it.

If you wouldn't tell this child that their mother is "cruel" or "a bad mother" or "using her as a weapon" then don't say that to the adults involved where it might get back to the child due to being wound up to anger.

Children overhear many conversations that the parents try to hide.

If someone would say that to a child about their mother, they need lots and lots of therapy

But no one has said that to a child about their mother as far as I'm aware. The only way what's been said on this thread could get back to this 5 year old, would be if the OP told her GD which for me is extremely unlikely.

I wouldn't say it to child and stand by having said it on this thread. It is my opinion of the mother in this case and one I am free to express.

If someone would say that to a child about their mother, they need lots and lots of therapy I really don't think any poster here would say anything like that to a chid, why on earth would you even think they might? Equally if you wouldn't say to a child "you don't get to see daddy if he doesn't pay the money on time", then don't do the action. It really does need best behaviour all round.