The one indisputable FACT in this referendum debate

@Anya

Your last post is irrelevant. I'm presenting facts. I'm sure there's another thread somewhere to criticise experts.

Ditto

As I see it there are only two questions to answer :-
1: If we were not already a member would we be applying for membership ?
2: If it were possible to buy shares in the eu would we ?
Any thoughts ?

I don't really understand your reasoning. Why would these be the only two questions?

The reality is that the UK IS a member and the question should be whether we would be better off if we left, given that there is no definite alternative plan. We can't turn back the clock. Norway, Switzerland and Canada all see disadvantages of trading with the EU but not being a member.

The EU isn't a profit-making business, so we couldn't buy shares.

Iceland has been thinking about rejoining the EU as it hasn't got the trade negotiating power to access markets like China.

UK has no trade negotiating civil servants - We have no expertise in this field at all.

Leaving the EU will NOT make any difference to immigration. But it will knacker the economy. We have more control over our borders than those EU and non-EU countries in the Schengen Area and the UK can set its own policies.

So why not stay in the EU and lobby UK government to change immigration policy - which it has the power to do.

Don't listen to the mindless "take back control" marketing twoddle from Brexit - we have control through our own government.

ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/index_en.htm

Brexit and myth are interchangeable.

Absolutely, whitewave.

GG thanks for the tirade, and advice to read more carefully. I think you will find that this thread was started after your joking remark.

Oh dear, yet again you play the person not the argument. You but forward a proposition Anya; I put forward a counter argument suggesting that a projection of what will happen in the future cannot be a fact. By all means challenge the points of my argument. I can see that, yet again, we have someone who believes that, not only have they a "right" to an opinion - which indeed you do but, having put that argument out for discussion you think you have some sort of "right" not to be contradicted. Unfortunately, you have started a discussion on a open forum and I have every right to put a contradictory view, just as you may then come back and challenge what I say.

But really Anya ... a "tirade". Do we really have to descend to this level. It is unfortunate that a small group of members use derogatory or just plain nasty personal remarks so often as a form of argument. It does, sadly, annoy if not upset people and certainly does not add any information to a deeply important discussion. If you have a point to put forward that counters what I said then do so; I for one would be interested in that. Can I suggest that if you cannot be polite you just leave me alone Anya. I will never accept personal attack and your sort of post just derails the proper and meaningful argument.

Boris Johnson is a conman and Brexit is based on lies:

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

Boris Johnson, Daily Telegraph February 2016

I appreciate riclorian that you believe this is important

"1: If we were not already a member would we be applying for membership?"

I think this is just a version of the politicians' answer "well we wouldn't be starting from here" when it is obvious we are.

This is where we are; we joined because we thought it would be good for the country. Since we joined we have gone from being the Sick Man of Europe to the sixth (of even fifth according to some) richest country. Just to bring that home I will repeat that this has happened while we have been in the EU.

Yes, there are huge global problems, no the EU isn't perfect but why oh why does any one think we can improve it from the outside. You may say we will not need to improve it as we will not be in it but they will still our largest market. If we have triggered a downturn within the EU will they be able to afford to trade with us to the same extent. Even if they recover quickly will they want to.

Personally I would rather deal with the issues that exist. This question keeps being brought up by the leave side but really it is meaningless.

There are out and out lies appearing on this thread.

And there is no way I can name names.

Where are the lies?

You can't make an accusation like that without backing it up. And you can also name names' If I have told a lie I'm quite happy to be 'outed' and I'm sure that everyone else will feel the same.

Same here. If I am accused of lying, I will either apologise or back up my claim.

Of course Brexit will solve the immigration problem. Migrants for the most part go to countries where economies are vibrant. If we leave we will sink into recession, so less people will want to come here and many of those currently here will leave (Ireland has seen exactly this). Of course in the process we will find high unemployment, less money for investment in the NHS and public services, more poor and homeless, less welfare provision.Our care services and health service will be seriously understaffed but it won't matter because we won't be able to afford them anyway. A bit like taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut. Or as my mother would say "cutting your nose off to spite your face". But I've realised reading these threads there are undoubtedly people who would do this!

I have had a candidate here for an interview who told me, in all honesty that 'The Social' gave her Romanian neighbours a car as well as a house. These myths do abound and it worries me that votes which will affect the future of my children are being made based on this type of nonsense and lies. Did anyone see that disgusting propaganda on BBC last night put out by the Vote Leave cabal? An old lady choking on her food and the two alternative episodes at A and E. One showed her treatment in the EU ( waiting room packed full of suspiciously foreign looking patients, old lady waiting hours) The other screen showed us out of the EU ( old lady greeted warmly by reassuringly white doctor and treated immediately). Disgusting stuff. So, yes, people do believe the lies and untruths they are being fed, either from neighbours or from politicians.

But GillT57. There are often stories like that in the press. Which I presume turn out to be true. Often the people in the story confirm how much they receive. Up to them how they choose to spend the money that they are given.
But yes, often a neighbour does not know all the details of another.

If I name names, that would be a personal attack, so it is not doable.

But Tegan and dd I was not meaning you. I am not going to say anything more.

You've said enough (too much).

See FTSE is beginning its panic over Brexit, as is to a lesser extent the ROW.

Hope the Brexit lot have a good plan!

Not terribly evident as yet. Patel seems to say nothing but " let's be clear about this " and then goes on to be anything but. Farage is busy getting the migrants out, but doesn't seem worried about anything else. Johnson is scheming to become leader but doesn't have the first clue about anything whatsoever. Gove is squirrelling away at his latest project-which in this case is getting rid of human rights. -whose rights are they?.Whittingdale is gunning for Auntie - that's the Murdoch connection sorted
IDS is IDS and everything he touches turns to dust.
The rest are just background noise.
None of them have a plan.

obieone; it isn't a personal attack if you put up the lie and then go on to explain why it is a lie. I'm sure HQ would agree with that.

But Obieone, the point was that this person ( and many others) believed that their Eastern European neighbours had been given the car along with the house. It didnt dawn on her that they had likely all clubbed together and bought one car between them to improve their job prospects. People will believe what they want to believe, and their opinions are often helped along by irresponsible and inaccurate reporting by some newspapers. Whitewave I heard yesterdays interview on Radio 4 with Pritti Patel and she was well and truly found out as a fantasist; i loved it when she was spouting on about 'they' would promise to spend £100m on the NHS, the interviewer asked her on whose authority? PP is neither Dept of Health or Treasury and has no authority whatsoever to make these promises. I am getting sick of the lies on both sides.