Now is the winter of Britain’s discontent

Here’s the link for those who missed The Andrew Marr Show:-

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010bbd/the-andrew-marr-show-03102021

* no should be *and

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

Whitewavemark2

Good grief of course not, but I am not in agreement of the sort of lunatic economics Johnson is now employing which has shocked the economy and driving some employers to offer as much as 30% extra. Yes perhaps they are worth the extra, but it should be done at a much more sedate pace than is currently the case.

Ask yourself. Could your business sustain a 30% or 20% wage increase without increasing your prices?

I do not have to ask myself that question as all our employees are paid way above the living wage, always have been and always will.

We learned very early on that you get what you pay for, both in goods no workforce.

The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels. It’s time for them to pay decent wages and yes it’s down to the U.K. public to realise that everything cannot be supplied ^as cheep as chips^

Could your business sustain a 20% rise without raising your prices.

I think your honest answer will be “no”

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

Whitewavemark2

Good grief of course not, but I am not in agreement of the sort of lunatic economics Johnson is now employing which has shocked the economy and driving some employers to offer as much as 30% extra. Yes perhaps they are worth the extra, but it should be done at a much more sedate pace than is currently the case.

Ask yourself. Could your business sustain a 30% or 20% wage increase without increasing your prices?

I do not have to ask myself that question as all our employees are paid way above the living wage, always have been and always will.

We learned very early on that you get what you pay for, both in goods no workforce.

The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels. It’s time for them to pay decent wages and yes it’s down to the U.K. public to realise that everything cannot be supplied ^as cheep as chips^

Could your business sustain a 20% rise without raising your prices.

I think your honest answer will be “no”

If you read my post its down to the U.K. public to realise that everything cannot be supplied as cheep as chips is my answer.

As for for us being able to absorb a 20% increase, we have done in the past and may have to do so fairly soon due to logistical problems on Chinese and India Imports.

Whitewavemark2 at least it will reduce our Capital Gains Tax for the next tax year (

So by absorbing 20% or even more and not increasing your prices that will mean that your prophets will decrease.

If every business in the U.K. did this our ability to attract inward investment would disappear.

Whitewavemark2

So by absorbing 20% or even more and not increasing your prices that will mean that your prophets will decrease.

If every business in the U.K. did this our ability to attract inward investment would disappear.

Generalisation. Whitewavemark2 you are not party to business operating models.

Some businesses run with overdrafts, loans along with mortgages and rents, some don’t.

There are posters on here, including yourself who have been extremely vociferous regarding Companies making huge profits. If now is the time for profit margins to decrease in the short term, well an efficiently run company should be able to absorb that, looking forward some may eventually be passed on to the end user depending on their individual circumstances.

So, we're repeatedly being told on here that the lorry driver shortage isn't due to Brexit. In fact GG13 showed us a graph the other day that showed what a relatively small proportion of drivers came from the EU, and how a relatively small proportion of those had gone home.

Yet, we are also told that the reason for low wages in the haulage industry is that the haulage companies had been employing EU nationals at low, low wages, and that was edging out the UK drivers.

Can't both be true.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

So by absorbing 20% or even more and not increasing your prices that will mean that your prophets will decrease.

If every business in the U.K. did this our ability to attract inward investment would disappear.

Generalisation. Whitewavemark2 you are not party to business operating models.

Some businesses run with overdrafts, loans along with mortgages and rents, some don’t.

There are posters on here, including yourself who have been extremely vociferous regarding Companies making huge profits. If now is the time for profit margins to decrease in the short term, well an efficiently run company should be able to absorb that, looking forward some may eventually be passed on to the end user depending on their individual circumstances.

No it isn’t generalisations it is economics.

And of course we can see if we desire the way a company is being run. There is a snapshot taken yearly.

Apparently one of the biggest shortages is in warehouses with forklift drivers.

Who knew!

Whitewavemark2 I assume you are referring to company accounts.

Paul Kelly the South East’s Turkey producer tried that on the news last week. He was claiming that before Brexit he employed 42 permanent staff, fortunately they had checked his previous accounts employees numbered 7…

Accounts submitted are only as good as the accountant who prepared them and his creative abilities

Better wages = better lives no ifs or buts…

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

You do realise that it illegal to knowingly submit incorrect accounts?

There is creativity and fraud.

Grant Thornton have recently learned that to their cost haven’t they?

GrannyGravy13

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

That’s not what a mega warehouse owner was saying this morning.

Most of his shortage is due to people returning to Europe.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

As for a shortage of Fork Lift Truck Drivers there is a simple explanation, no tests were carried out during the height of Covid and there is a substantial backlog (we are awaiting a date for one at the moment)

That’s not what a mega warehouse owner was saying this morning.

Most of his shortage is due to people returning to Europe.

Ah! You saw that too? I can't the article with evidence now - I stupidly didn't save it. From what I remember there might be a backlog, but the normal number of tests were being carried out.

I'll have a look for the link.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I assume you are referring to company accounts.

Paul Kelly the South East’s Turkey producer tried that on the news last week. He was claiming that before Brexit he employed 42 permanent staff, fortunately they had checked his previous accounts employees numbered 7…

Accounts submitted are only as good as the accountant who prepared them and his creative abilities

Better wages = better lives no ifs or buts…

I'm honestly not disputing that, but it's not quite that simple (as I'm sure you know).

If people can't be persuaded to take up driving HGVs in significant numbers, all that happens is that those already driving get paid more. Competition between hauliers for scarce labour will result in those operating on lower profit margins and perhaps going bust.

Whitewavemark2

Apparently one of the biggest shortages is in warehouses with forklift drivers.

Who knew!

Maybe they should install Amazon-style robots.

Alegrias1

So, we're repeatedly being told on here that the lorry driver shortage isn't due to Brexit. In fact GG13 showed us a graph the other day that showed what a relatively small proportion of drivers came from the EU, and how a relatively small proportion of those had gone home.

Yet, we are also told that the reason for low wages in the haulage industry is that the haulage companies had been employing EU nationals at low, low wages, and that was edging out the UK drivers.

Can't both be true.

I think it’s a combination of U.K. driver dissatisfaction with pay and conditions, drivers retiring along with the percentage of EU drivers no longer here.

I guess it’s a perfect storm whilst it is more severe in the U.K. it is worldwide.

The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels.

So those 3% (IIRC) of EU drivers that your graph said have gone home have influenced the salaries of the other 97%?

I don't think so.

And for that we have gone through the whole Brexit debacle.

Apparently, trade organisations had a meeting with the government three months ago about the situation with drivers, but the government decided no action was needed.

Alegrias1

^The hauliers have been paying immigrant drivers as little as possible for the most hours for a good few years, hence the massive drain of U.K. drivers which is wrong on all levels.^

So those 3% (IIRC) of EU drivers that your graph said have gone home have influenced the salaries of the other 97%?

I don't think so.

And for that we have gone through the whole Brexit debacle.

Have you seen any of the interviews with HGV drivers?

They are all singing from the same hymn sheet, low wages, long and inconvenient hours combined with few if any truck stops

Any decent employer/employers organisation would have begun to address these issues as far back as 2015/16 when it was first flagged up.

A Government cannot force anyone into a specific job, whether they be a U.K. or EU National.

I worked for 14 years in an industry that supported the haulage industry. I've spoken to more drivers and fleet managers than you've had hot dinners.

Low wages and an aging workforce were a problem for the whole period. The fact that some of the workers were from the EU was never thought of as the cause until the Tories thought it up as one of the excuses for Brexit.

And that is the very point growstuff. Johnson and the Government knew, full well, that this would be a massive problem- and not only did they do NOTHING to prepare, they ACTUALLY send a huge proportion of the drivers and fork-lift truck drivers (and nurses, and carers, and .... and ....) KNOWING full well that this would make matters so so mcuh worse.

Even if you believe in Free Market, in a high/er wage economy (and most of us would agree)- you can't just let it happen without planning, in a pandemic- AND send vast numbers of the good, experienced staff you have, packing with a flea in their ear.

The fact that there is a shortage in EU too makes this so much more difficult- as drivers, having been so badly treated, will take jobs where conditions, red tape, delays, aggro of every kind - and salaries, are better. And now, at this stage, even high salaries will not attract them back on short term.

There is Free Market- and the is total shambles!

Alegrias1

I worked for 14 years in an industry that supported the haulage industry. I've spoken to more drivers and fleet managers than you've had hot dinners.

Low wages and an aging workforce were a problem for the whole period. The fact that some of the workers were from the EU was never thought of as the cause until the Tories thought it up as one of the excuses for Brexit.

Sorry Alegrias1 you are wrong regarding my consumption of hot dinners and hauliers.

Well, maybe. But I've spoken to a lot

And the second paragraph remains true.