EU pro-hijab campaign pulled

JenniferEccles

I don’t like them as they all represent a kind of oppression of women, a form of control, therefore there is no comparison whatsoever with headscarves worn by western women.

I agree with the decision made by France.

OK ban the burka- I'd be all for it. But if a woman chooses to wear a colourful scarf, then she should be allowed.

Trisher, I agree- if I am surprised students in France did not opt to wear a colourful scarf in school in support of their friends. I would have.

When some of the best, most studious, respectful, hard working students, get banned from their studies because they choose to wear a colourful scarf- then you know somehting is very wrong in that society.

When a woman gets arrested on a beach, because she chooses to wear a t-shirt and leggings, whilst others are topless with a string up their as - then something is very wrong. Culture, my foot.

When a brilliant doctor gets stripped of their job, because they choose to wear a scarf, something is wrong. Imagine if this would happen in the UK?

Sorry for confusion, I meant Kali’s question. I understand now.

My dil says hair covering has never historically been a feature of her culture and that it is false modesty to start now. She also believes it has a misogynistic background and that it gives men power over women, because they will then judge hijab/non hijab wearing Muslim women differently. She has experienced this herself and will have none of it.

No, I have never agreed with France on the subject of not displaying religious affiliation in public.

Tolerence should be extended to men and women wearing a cruxific or other religious emblem in public if they want to do so.

If Muslim women want to wear a headscarf in public that should be up to them.

I can, however, go along with schools objecting to seven or eight year old girls doing so - they are not and should not be objects of anyone's sexual desire at that age.

Frankly, I feel we have more or less the right guide lines in Denmark.

If you want to wear a headscarf, religious medal, kippah etc. you can do so, but an employer has the right to tell you not to do so while at work.

One nation-wide chain of supermarkets will not employ women wearing a headscarf or men wearing a turban or kippah. Another chain, just as large as the first, permits its workers to do so, as long as they choose a colour that matches the workplace overalls worn.

The railway company asked its Muslim women employees to chose three headscarves that match the uniform and the post office has done something similar.

Hospitals accept the use of headscarves or kippah - the headscarf is surely more hygenic than a nurse or doctor's uncovered hair anywhere near the wound she is dressing!

Here girls wearing a burka cannot sit public examinations, as neither the examiner nor the invigilator could possible know whether the candidate presenting herself was the woman down on the list or not.

I think it's interesting that a women can take the decision to flash her boobs or wear a sexy outfit but can't take the decision to cover her hair and wear modest dress, because in doing so she is obviously being controlled by men! Really which do you think most men would go for? The topless woman or the woman in the headscarf? So who is being oppressed?

Well yes but sexism in one aspect doesnt negate sexism in another aspect. I think there is actually a great deal of misogyny in the empowerment concept of say 'only fans' but lots of women choose to do it.
There is a brilliant article somewhere about 'choice' and what a con the idea of choice sometimes is.

trisher

I think it's interesting that a women can take the decision to flash her boobs or wear a sexy outfit but can't take the decision to cover her hair and wear modest dress, because in doing so she is obviously being controlled by men! Really which do you think most men would go for? The topless woman or the woman in the headscarf? So who is being oppressed?

These are very valid points. I agree about choice. However, whenever I see little girls wearing hijabs, it always occurs to me possibly that isn't their choice. I say that because I was brought up Catholic and when I was young we were told, even as young female children, that our heads should be covered in church, that wasn't my choice I didn't want anything on my head, but then I only had to put up with it for an hour or so not all day!. Later I was to learn the meaning of patriarchy, which lets face it is present in most religions, to a greater or lesser degree.

TerriBull

trisher

I think it's interesting that a women can take the decision to flash her boobs or wear a sexy outfit but can't take the decision to cover her hair and wear modest dress, because in doing so she is obviously being controlled by men! Really which do you think most men would go for? The topless woman or the woman in the headscarf? So who is being oppressed?

These are very valid points. I agree about choice. However, whenever I see little girls wearing hijabs, it always occurs to me possibly that isn't their choice. I say that because I was brought up Catholic and when I was young we were told, even as young female children, that our heads should be covered in church, that wasn't my choice I didn't want anything on my head, but then I only had to put up with it for an hour or so not all day!. Later I was to learn the meaning of patriarchy, which lets face it is present in most religions, to a greater or lesser degree.

I fully agree with most of that and I think possibly sex is the new religion and it is mostly controlled by men so now instead of having to cover their hair women are pressured to have the perfect body and have it surgically changed if it isn't perfect.

trisher

I think it's interesting that a women can take the decision to flash her boobs or wear a sexy outfit but can't take the decision to cover her hair and wear modest dress, because in doing so she is obviously being controlled by men! Really which do you think most men would go for? The topless woman or the woman in the headscarf? So who is being oppressed?

this 100%. Exactly what my 6th formers used to say.

trisher

I think it's interesting that a women can take the decision to flash her boobs or wear a sexy outfit but can't take the decision to cover her hair and wear modest dress, because in doing so she is obviously being controlled by men! Really which do you think most men would go for? The topless woman or the woman in the headscarf? So who is being oppressed?

No one makes a woman flash her boobs, some man may make a woman wear a Burkha or a headscarf. If people cannot wear a crucifix at work, neither should a headscarf be tolerated. Goose and gander come to mind. The absence of tolerance towards Christians showing their faith and a Muslim is very marked in this Country .
www.christian.org.uk/press_release/anti-christian-bullying-ignored-by-ofsted/

Growstuff. Are you aware of women wearing sheitels? Do you see them everywhere?

I don’t agree that men pressurise women to have perfect bodies and faces. Most men don’t like pumped up lips etc. Women pressurise themselves in their desire to attract men - or rather some women.

It's a pressure from society and from men, who are in turn pressurised by certain things such as porn, sone men absolutely pressure women to look a certain way, body hair is an example of this.

Linclass 'No one makes a woman flash her boobs,' I think this is very naive indeed. Expectations put real pressure on young women. A young woman turning up at the beach with a one piece suit rather that a tiny top or none, and a string up the b*m, would be ridiculed by her peers. Girls in the UK are hugely pressurised to dress to appeal to the boys ... tight, cropped tops and tight jeans, etc.

tickingbird

I don’t agree that men pressurise women to have perfect bodies and faces. Most men don’t like pumped up lips etc. Women pressurise themselves in their desire to attract men - or rather some women.

Who do you think controls the mainstream media, the magazines, the TV programmes, the newspapers?Where do the ideas and images come from that give women the idea that men like certain physical features?

I'm 50/50 on the concept of men controlling women's imagery. Certainly when I was young all that Sun Page 3 stuff was driven by men, but the women who posed had to be complicit. Some women are happy to be judged on their physical appearance alone and don't seem bothered that they are viewed in a one dimensional way by men. . There are women and men who revel in being exhibitionists and what with social media being what it is anyone can have that platform these days. In that I have a certain sympathy for the rationale of those who prefer a certain amount of modesty and not to be judged on their appearance, hence the hijab and if that hasn't been imposed on the wearer but is their choice, it's really up to them.

tickingbird

*Growstuff*. Are you aware of women wearing sheitels? Do you see them everywhere?

I'll have to Google that I'm afraid.
This obsession with covering hair is very strange. Are they afraid of men seeing it?Why?
Amish and brethren type people do it too and some of them never cut their hair.Its a way of being separate as if the rest of us are sinners.

tickingbird

*Growstuff*. Are you aware of women wearing sheitels? Do you see them everywhere?

1 If I see them, yes.

2 I've rarely seen women wearing a hijab where I live.

I don't really see why it's relevant whether I've seen women with head coverings.

My question was really related to why people don't ever seem to think head coverings in other religions are repressive/ant-feminist, etc.

JenniferEccles

I don’t like them as they all represent a kind of oppression of women, a form of control, therefore there is no comparison whatsoever with headscarves worn by western women.

I agree with the decision made by France.

What about nuns?

Suppose that hats and bonnets are unacceptable too? Afterall, the Amish community wear them. Oh, and headscarves will have to be included because Plymouth Bretheren wear them. My Jewish friend wears a wig, so that her own hair is covered, so that's wigs out. Anything else?

tickingbird

*Growstuff*. Are you aware of women wearing sheitels? Do you see them everywhere?

tickingbird
I see them all the time. You wouldn’t see them everywhere

"Girls in the UK are hugely pressurised to dress to appeal to the boys ... tight, cropped tops and tight jeans."

I live in a small town in a rural area. I honestly never see any sign of this. The young women here seem to wear comfortable, casual things suited to the outdoor nature of the place. You are much more likely to see riding boots than a crop top. These young women look like they mean business and are getting on with life. Even in the evenings I see very little clothing which looks set to please anyone but themselves.

I've spent these last few days in the university area of Bristol which is absolutely packed with young women - baggy cropped trousers, jumpsuits, ankle length coats, checked shirts, sloppy joe jumpers and bobble hats were everywhere. Also sports clothing on young women who were looking as wonderful, strong and powerful as Rosie the Riveter. Bristol University and Netball girls were everywhere in their kit looking like they could take on the world. I have to say a fair few of all the women I'm talking about were wearing headscarves and looked as independent, strong and up for living the fullest life possible on their own terms as you, I or the next girl.

In the evenings I saw pretty dresses with thick tights and DM boots or just more of the same as that worn in the day.

If the young women I see feel any pressure at all it seems they also feel as able as we were in our day to say 'stuff that' and put on exactly what pleases them. Go ALL girls!!!

That is great Scones-and yes, my comment applies to some girls much more than others.

I'm sure you're right Kali2 . What I saw really gave me heart and I wanted to share it.

Really? You are want the government to tell you how to dress ?How liberating for you