When is mis-speaking actually lying to deceive?

So as I said above...

you can't tell when he's lying or telling the truth, and neither can he.

Of course there are more parties Gill but only two that matter or who have any chance of winning.I would have thought that anyone who hated the thought of Johnson winning last time would have voted Labour.
A wasted vote otherwise and helped the Conservatives to power.

But surely, surely, as he was saying it, he must have thought that £140 per week was wrong? Why didn't the Chancellor or one of the other band on the front bench lean over and correct him? Are they so completely out of touch that they think that nearly £600 a month is paid out to everyone who needs it in the winter? Really? The best bit of yesterday's PMQs was watching that silly old fart Tory backbencher go apoplectic as he realised that trade deals with India would involve thousands of visas being handed out like confetti, it was entertaining watching him squirming, trying not to let his blatant racism burst out . 'Sir' Desmond Swayne I think it was.

Maybe not realising £600 is a lot of money was another sign as to how detached they are from most people's reality

Sorry this has nothing to with the thread but was it Micheal Fabricant who was all dressed up in his new hat and jumper?

lemongrove

Of course there are more parties Gill but only two that matter or who have any chance of winning.I would have thought that anyone who hated the thought of Johnson winning last time would have voted Labour.
A wasted vote otherwise and helped the Conservatives to power.

please don't try to tell me how it works, I am well aware of the inequalities of the FPTP system, and of living in a safe Tory seat. Sadly, this seat is such a safe one that the alternatives such as LibDems and Labour don't field decent candidates. It is most frustrating and makes me feel unemancipated as a voter. Still doesn't mean I voted for Corbyn though!

Are they so completely out of touch that they think that nearly £600 a month is paid out to everyone who needs it in the winter? Really?

Very possibly!

I doubt if many of them even know the value of various benefits.

Wasn't £140 about the amount paid per head for the people at Liz Truss's lunch? It's no wonder that some people have no idea what £140 means to the poorest. Let's face it - the cost of a lunch isn't that much, unless it's being paid as a free school meal.

Sorry this has nothing to with the thread but was it Michael Fabricant who was all dressed up in his new hat and jumper?

I didn't see that ( thankfully), Jane. He is the one with 'the hair' I think? Looks Like the lovechild of Harry Enfield and Boris Johnson (read on Twitter)

As the person who started this thread, I'm fascinated at the dispute over the Warm House Discount mistake/deception and do thank those who have confirmed the PM repeated his inaccuracy. On the question of facts such as that discount and inequality/poverty movement, he is provided with those figures regularly and beforePMQ where they are useful. He is not chaotic/forgetful, he is deliberate. For me the more important matter was over inflation which he DID lie about today. When Rayner called him out at the end of the session, she quoted the Sky interview when he had stated people's fears about inflation increases were unfounded. Correcting the ministerial record is normal practice when someone makes a 'mistake'. In response to Rayner's challenge, Johnson stood up and moved to leave the Chamber, without reply, until stopped by the Speaker. Fact! Deception or mistake - he had his chance.

if you qualify and were born before 1941 and live alone you get £300 after 1941 its £200

____________________

Born between 27 September 1941 and 26 September 1955Born on or before 26 September 1941
You qualify and live alone (or none of the people you live with qualify)£200£300
You qualify and live with someone under 80 who also qualifies£100£200
You qualify and live with someone 80 or over who also qualifies£100£150
You qualify, live in a care home and do not get certain benefits

Lemongrove I assume you supported the dreadfully inadequate Jeremy Corbyn Gill?

Doesn’t follow. I didn’t for example .

And aren’t you being personal to Gill there ?

lemongrove

Yes Maizie ? very kind and considerate of you to ‘the hard of hearing’
He said the wrong thing about the warm homes, but that doesn’t make it done on purpose ( a lie) far more likely with Johnson in that he muddled the figures up.
The evidence is that he gets things wrong fairly regularly.
Annoying yes, a crime, no.

? Johnson lives in a permanent muddle. He must be so confused?

To suggest that the constant lies are merely annoying sets a very low bar indeed.

It would be a low bar WW if anyone had actually said that.
They haven’t.
I wrote ‘the evidence is that he gets things wrong fairly regularly, annoying yes, a crime, no.
Getting muddled....getting things wrong.
Just in the interest of truth, as there is so much twisting of words sometimes on GN.

Cvd....I really think you credit Johnson with too much? as in being deliberate....much more likely that he didn’t read the figures properly as he really is forgetful and chaotic, even his friends say that ruefully!

What I am finding extraordinary, lemon is that you are defending Johnson by describing traits in him that nobody in their right minds would consider to be appropriate for a holder of high office in government.

I have said ( many times!) on GN that he wasn’t my choice for leader, never mind the PM.He is as he is, as they say and I had strong doubts that he would be a good PM.There was no choice when it came to the GE, him or Corbyn.
Having said that, I don’t think he has done a bad job where Covid is concerned and I really don’t care about his many marriages/ affairs or how much a Tory donor spends on refurbishing his flat.
He also got things moving with Brexit, therefore honouring his promise before the election.I think he has a chaotic mind that flits about from one thing to another and he doesn’t do details, which is why PMQ’s isn’t his forte.
Am sure there will be somebody else leading the party before the next GE.
On the other hand I think the nit picking about him gets a bit too ridiculous at times on social media.
Up to now....he has been a vote winner and is well liked by the general public and he needs to know that’s wearing thin ( the goodwill). There’s no doubt he is an eccentric character, and see his main fault is in wanting/ needing to be liked.You can’t be a strong leader that way.He has a good chancellor in Sunak but prefers to be a loner on decisions ( a mistake, as T May was just the same.)
I see him as being a good PM in fits and starts but overall too odd a character to remain for more than one term.

lemongrove

*Cvd*....I really think you credit Johnson with too much? as in being deliberate....much more likely that he didn’t read the figures properly as he really is forgetful and chaotic, even his friends say that ruefully!

Yes he such a cute and cuddly person how could anyone think of voting for anyone else, especially one that might know what they are doing.

Septimia

I don't often believe politicians anyway. It really depends on who is speaking and what the circumstances are.

Me neither Septimia. Granted we are aware of more examples from BJ, which is not good. One reason we are more aware of them is the huge increase in popularity of watching political broadcasts, reading media posts and newspapers. That’s no bad thing, and I hope the interest continues for this and future governments. It might improve things.

lemongrove

How do you know he stood up with the intention of walking out? The PM has to stand up to answer a question.
Did you mis hear the £140 for Winter as a week, he does mumble a lot.
VAT may yet be cut.

It's quite clear although the opinion of some journos is that he had no idea of the amount and plucked a figure out of the air. I think that's being rather generous.

JaneJudge

did you watch politics live in the afternoon? I don't know who the bloke was (MP or otherwise) but he said the solution is people take on a second job or they work longer hours or retrain in another field!

I only saw the last bit. If you meant the young one with a balding head he also said that he voted for the NIC increase as it was the best of a bad job. He refused to answer Polly Toynbee when she asked a couple of times why income tax hadn't been increased instead.

lemongrove

I assume you supported the dreadfully inadequate Jeremy Corbyn Gill?
I do challenge what posters say as there is a lot of lazy assumptions and sometimes sheer rubbish spouted by those who hate the government.
Johnson mumbles, is never on top of details and frequently forgets and gets things wrong and probably lies rather than admit to not knowing answers.That doesn’t mean that he always lies, nor can the OP get away with thinking he was going to walk out (unless it’s clear that he started to walk off.)
There is enough fake news around without us on GN accepting anything at all that is said.
If you want to believe that he was lying rather than mis speaking about the £140 then that’s up to you.

The PM is given advance notice of the questions so either he didn't do his research (although I assume that he has researchers to do it for him) or he didn't bother to read the notes before PMQs.

Does anybody think that the Tories would allow energy handouts of £140 per week? Using my trust calculator that's £7280 pa.

Dinahmo

lemongrove

How do you know he stood up with the intention of walking out? The PM has to stand up to answer a question.
Did you mis hear the £140 for Winter as a week, he does mumble a lot.
VAT may yet be cut.

It's quite clear although the opinion of some journos is that he had no idea of the amount and plucked a figure out of the air. I think that's being rather generous.

£140 was correct, but it's a one-off annual payment, intended to cover the coldest months of winter, so works out at less than £10 a week.

lemongrove

Yes, I did listen to the link, but as I am half deaf anyway, cannot make it out.Unless a voice is as clear as a bell I never can, and he is anything but.

This suggests that we cannot accept everything that you tell us that you've heard

It just shows how ignorant and uninformed he is that he could even think that the Warm Home Discount is paid weekly. I wish to God that it was weekly.

Chewbacca

It just shows how ignorant and uninformed he is that he could even think that the Warm Home Discount is paid weekly. I wish to God that it was weekly.

That was my point earlier on the thread. It's just not conceivable.

I know it was several pages ago but several people misunderstood my post when I said:

On the whole, while most politicians will put a gloss on things, I do not think they are necessarily liars. My lie, may be your fact, merely because you believe it, true or not.

These comments were not a comment on the whoppers Boris Johnson told. I thought my castigation of him in the paras above that quote made my opinion of the Baron Munchausen of British politics clear.

The above quote was a general comment about politics and what people say, as on all sides, one parties 'fact' is another party's 'lie'

I will try to be cleare in future.