WW 3 ..is this the reality?

So, Fleurpepper Anyones son, brother, husband, cousin, godson as long as it’s not yours ?
Maybe one of those wrong brits that offend you so much in Lanzarote.

NO, this is not what I said, at all. It is about alternatives- war is just so dreadful, barbaric and cruel. But is the choice is between two armies fighting each other, or civilians being maimed and killed, babies, children, the elderly, sick and infirm- sleeping in their beds, then yes, I would rather have 2 armies fighting each other.

wrong brits- this is just sick to bring badly behaved tourists into this discussion

If nuclear weapons are added to the mix- it does not bear thinking about.

I think the courage of the Ukrainians is an example to us all. Has everyone forgotten the kindness shown to a Russian soldier.....allowing him to phone his mother, feeding him tea and a pasty. There are so many atrocities coming to light, we mustn't allow Putin to succeed. As already stated, if he is allowed to conquer Ukraine, he will then move on to the other ex-Soviet countries.

Excellent post, Elegran.

JaneJudge

I hope Bea65 is okay. I have stopped watching the news as it was making me anxious and reading this thread has made me feel anxious

I expect Bea has retreated if she has any sense.

Catastrophising is not helpful when Bea needed reassurances and suggestions of help, I think. Those of us who lived through The Cold War and had relatives in other conflicts may be better able to compartmentalise too, for the sake of our MH, our children and now grandchildren.

Reading Bea's OP properly, of course, her anxiety is partly because of the amount of money we might spend sending aid to Ukraine instead of spending that money on the NHS, but it doesn't work like that.

Fleurpepper

If nuclear weapons are added to the mix- it does not bear thinking about.

Best not think about it if it is affecting you to that extent.

Whatever you think or do personally won't change things.

Other mother's sons continue to die but in the meantime, Switzerland blocks vital help.

Ukrainian soldiers continue to fight and die to protect their homes — and the rest of Europe — from Russian aggression. Yet, Switzerland is blocking vital assistance.

Despite repeated pleas, Switzerland won’t allow Germany to give Ukraine much-needed Swiss-made air defense ammunition that can help protect Ukrainians from the Russian onslaught.

www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2023/01/17/world-leaders-should-press-switzerland-on-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine

Has this decision been reversed or will this mean this war will go on for longer and more people be killed on both sides?

Yes, but the reality of this awful reality is causing 10s of 1000s to suffer from anxiety, not clinical anxiety, but real anxiety based on said reality. Because Putin won't be the last. This is the reality.

''Anyones son, brother, husband, cousin, godson as long as it’s not yours ?'' not yours, nor mine, nor anyone else's- this would be my wish. Not my ACs, nor my GCs, or nephews, or friends, all of whom are of course as British as yours.

But if the choice is '2 armies in a field' - or 100s of 1000s of civilians in their homes, in their beds, in hospital or in tents freezing in the street- then one choice is better than the other- in a dreadful, awful and cruel way.

Fleurpepper I am not ignoring the presence of nuclear warheads. I am just accepting that they are there but i thing far too much focus is placed on them. The war in Ukraine is tragically reaching its first anniversary and despite talking big Putin has not yet used nuclear warheads. I am not saying he will never use them, but the restraints of Mutually Assured Destruction that stopped them being used during the cold war are still effective. Putin knows that if he uses them, so will the Americans. No one can say 'never', but one can say, currently unlikely.

Yes, but the reality of this awful reality is causing 10s of 1000s to suffer from anxiety, not clinical anxiety, but real anxiety

Of course they are. The wives and children of those men fighting for freedom in Ukraine are anxious. Anyone with relatives there is anxious.

I feel for them.

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

If nuclear weapons are added to the mix- it does not bear thinking about.

Best not think about it if it is affecting you to that extent.

Whatever you think or do personally won't change things.

Agreed, Callistomen.

I see no point in wasting time and mental energy in worrying about something we are powerless to prevent.

Not my ACs, nor my GCs, or nephews, or friends, all of whom are of course as British as yours

🤔 Never assume anything.

I can tell you that not all of mine are British and some live in countries that could be next on Putin's list.

Callistemon21

^Not my ACs, nor my GCs, or nephews, or friends, all of whom are of course as British as yours^

🤔 Never assume anything.

I can tell you that not all of mine are British and some live in countries that could be next on Putin's list.

Ditto

Elegran’s post is not excellent because it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. That’s what is being discussed, not idealistic ideas that have nothing whatsoever to do with solving the horrendous problem of a power crazy dictator, who would no more sit down and negotiate than he would fly to the moon, invading a sovereign state and claiming it should be part of his country.

maddyone

Elegran’s post is not excellent because it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. That’s what is being discussed, not idealistic ideas that have nothing whatsoever to do with solving the horrendous problem of a power crazy dictator, who would no more sit down and negotiate than he would fly to the moon, invading a sovereign state and claiming it should be part of his country.

That was Hitler

That was indeed Hitler Whitewave and it is also Putin. As you are fully aware.

Elegran*s post is not excellent because it it contains not one word about how the conflict between Russia and Ukraine might be solved. There is only one way that this conflict is going to be solved and that is by his own people getting rid of Putin, and if no-one inside the Kremlin is willing to take on that task, then no amount of running about on here shouting “the sky is falling” and turning inside out with anxiety is going to change a thing. Elegtan is right, if the s***t hits the fan we will be much more able to cope with the implications if we are a strong and stable and focussed nation rather than one that simply stands about wringing it’s hands at the prospect of war coming our way. Where would that have got us as a country eighty years ago? We didn’t have any real idea of how to deal with a power crazed dictator then, but what we didn’t do was panic!! The nation came together and did what it had to do! And before anyone chooses to point out to me that another war will probably not be a conventional one, does anyone really think that there is no-one in the Kremlin that will think, before Putin pushes the button, “Hang on a minute! How the hell have we allowed ourselves to get to this point?” I’m sorry but I don’t believe it.

So how would you solve it, Maddyone? Or any other poster who thinks we should send in a gunboat or two.

By going in with all guns blazing, so that Putin then has every excuse to "defend his country" against the "Western conspiracy" to attack it?

By pleading with him to be merciful and spare our little island, so that he can say "Sure, just add yourselves to the countries under my wing, and allow me to be a part of your government and your law-making processes, and to collect taxes from your citizens, and conscript them into my army and . . . etecetera" all of which would be the equivalent of invading and defeating us, without the cost and effort of actually declaring war.

Did you read the paragraph where I said "You win by influencing more people than your enemy does to believe that you are in the right, by persuading them to resist in subtler ways, by resisting yourself all the subtle ways that you are being undermined and infiltrated."

That translates as taking active steps to influence world opinion of his tactics, including opinions inside his borders. You seduce (politically! - or perhaps not just politically, Mata Hari had her successes) his lieutenants and make it more attractive to be pro-West than anti-West. You seduce his citizens with international artifacts, fashions, music, culture, so that they are dissatisfied with the version of life they currently have. You show them the freedom of choosing between differing political parties, instead of elections with only one candidate. You use subtlety.

In short, you exercise diplomacy which is not just sitting around a table discussing things straight out, face to face. You also counter all the "diplomacy" that his envoys and ambassadors are deploying in their turn. Remember the "golden showers" incident that Trump was involved in? That was Putin's kind of "diplomacy".

The former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett negotiated a cease fire in the early days of the invasion with Putin dropping his demand of denazification and demilitarisation and Zelensky denouncing his application to join Nato. There was real will on both sides to end the conflict. Then the western leaders of USA, UK, France and Germany decided that they wanted to " keep striking Putin" and told Zelensky not to agree and blocked the talks.
The second attempt at a peace deal happened a few weeks later with Russia and Ukraine meeting in Istanbul where they came very close to a deal. Enter Boris Johnson who according to his own office, urged Zelensky not to negotiate and claimed to be speaking on behalf of all weatern leaders.. Reported by Ukraineska Pravda media, Boris told Zelensky " Even if you are ready to sign a deal with Russia, We are not"
Turkey, the hosts for these peace talks said they were sure that these peace deals were going to end the conflict and were then surprised by a number of NATO countries openly stating that they wanted the war to continue with the aim to "weaken Russia"
Of course peace is possible but only if the west allow it.

DaisyAnne

Normandygirl

I cannot believe how many couch commandos there are advocating for more death and destruction in Ukraine.
There are only 3 possible outcomes now, the war will go on for years with millions more losing their lives or it will end with the death of all of us. The third option is for all western leaders to put political pride to one side, sit down and talk and bring about a peaceful solution that both sides can live with.

Just out of interest Normandygirl, when did you become a Putin supporter? I presume you don't think we should have democracy either.

I don't support either side in this conflict because there are no "goodies and baddies" here. Putin acted illegally in his invasion but there was also huge provocation . The geopolitics of this area is very complex and deep, it's not the simple story that some on here pretend it is.
My support is with the millions of ordinary citizens of Ukraine and Russia ,who yet again ,become the victims whose homes are destroyed, who have the lives of their loved ones brutally ended and have their children's limbs blown off by mines. Creating millions more refugees, that no doubt, will not be welcome in the west, when the virtue signalling has been forgotten.
What kind of a world are we living in when it becomes controversial to advocate for peace?

Normandygirl

The former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett negotiated a cease fire in the early days of the invasion with Putin dropping his demand of denazification and demilitarisation and Zelensky denouncing his application to join Nato. There was real will on both sides to end the conflict. Then the western leaders of USA, UK, France and Germany decided that they wanted to " keep striking Putin" and told Zelensky not to agree and blocked the talks.
The second attempt at a peace deal happened a few weeks later with Russia and Ukraine meeting in Istanbul where they came very close to a deal. Enter Boris Johnson who according to his own office, urged Zelensky not to negotiate and claimed to be speaking on behalf of all weatern leaders.. Reported by Ukraineska Pravda media, Boris told Zelensky " Even if you are ready to sign a deal with Russia, We are not"
Turkey, the hosts for these peace talks said they were sure that these peace deals were going to end the conflict and were then surprised by a number of NATO countries openly stating that they wanted the war to continue with the aim to "weaken Russia"
Of course peace is possible but only if the west allow it.

Do you believe that Putin would keep his side of the deal?
What was the deal?
Subjugating part of Ukraine?

Former Israeli prime minister rebuts claim, boosted by Russia, that the US blocked a Ukraine peace agreement: 'It's unsure there was any deal to be made'
www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2?r=US&IR=T

Ukrainians are not naive’: Zelenskiy voices doubt on Russian military withdrawals
This article is more than 10 months old
President says positive signs from talks ‘do not drown out the explosions of Russian shells’ after first day of face-to-face negotiations in Istanbul
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/29/ukraine-russia-peace-talks-istanbul-war-kyiv

Normandygirl where are you finding your information, please?

Normadygirl
I dont know wether any of this is true or not, but it was far too late because the invasion was already in progress.
Way before the invasion the EU and NATO was encouraging Ukraine not to be “neutral”.
Expecting Putin to negotiate now is unrealistic he has occupied the area that he said he would and will try to maintain that.

I think we are being fed Russian propaganda on here.