Transwomen take all three medals in 'women's' cycling championship.

Iam64

It’s not clear to me what Nandy is saying that differs from the official Labour line as expressed by `Starmer. On 11.03.24 he backed the ban on transgender athletes in female sports. The telegraph article is behind a pay wall. Lisa Nandy appears to say individual sports should decide.
On one level it’s simple to simpletons like me. Any individual who passed through puberty as a male is a male so far as biology strength etc concerned. The should compete in a trans category, not against women or girls

The should compete in a trans category, not against women or girls

But, of course, that will destroy the TWAW argument, because they would have to accept that TWATW - which they don't.

I've just had a thought. If it's accepted that TW who've been through male puberty can compete with women - then logic demands that all biological males should also be allowed to compete with them.

The only difference between a male who's been through male puberty and who subsequently identifies as a woman, and one who doesn't, is just that - inner identity... and what relevance logically does that have when you're partaking in physical sport?

Awkward, isn't it.

Mollygo

Mollygo Today @ 12:42

Passing the buck and making excuses wasn’t acceptable for Conservatives to do. It isn’t acceptable for Labour to do either.

Good. So can we leave party politics out of it?

May as well, they’re not going to accept any responsibility for stopping males cheating are they.

Dickens

I've just had a thought. If it's accepted that TW who've been through male puberty can compete with women - then logic demands that all biological males should also be allowed to compete with them.

The only difference between a male who's been through male puberty and who subsequently identifies as a woman, and one who doesn't, is just that - inner identity... and what relevance logically does that have when you're partaking in physical sport?

I agree. It was what I was trying to say earlier.

If some 'special' males can compete in the female category isn't it discrimination against all the other males to exclude them?

Like it! Rosie51. Let all males join female sport.
That way at least when the women lose, the cheats will lose too.
If they were able to race successfully aim male competitions, there would be no need to cheat by pretending.

in her interview with The House magazine, Ms Nandy said it was the right approach for decisions to be made by individual sports. ‘I think we ought to respect the fact they’re far more expert in making those decisions and judgements than we are’. …….. but I think most have come to the conclusion that - although they want to be as inclusive as possible - biology does matter when it comes to sport. And that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring they take biology into account. I think that’s broadly sensible’.
(from todays daily mail)

Rosie makes an interesting suggestion

To be clear in all catagories, sport, refuges, prisons there is no difference between men and transwomen, they all belong to the category of men.

UK ministers when RS was PM used provisions in the Scotland Act to block legislation making it easier for transgender people to self identify. A small step but in the right direction.

Iam64

*in her interview with The House magazine, Ms Nandy said it was the right approach for decisions to be made by individual sports. ‘I think we ought to respect the fact they’re far more expert in making those decisions and judgements than we are’. …….. but I think most have come to the conclusion that - although they want to be as inclusive as possible - biology does matter when it comes to sport. And that it’s impossible to balance the requirement of fairness without ensuring they take biology into account. I think that’s broadly sensible’. *
(from todays daily mail)

Rosie makes an interesting suggestion

Nandy could have added that she, (as the representative of our government) thinks it’s wrong for males to compete in female sports . . . Unless she doesn’t?

Lisa Nandy has always believed TWAW, there is readily available footage of her saying that Male rapists should be accommodated in female prisons, and their crimes recorded as female. She treated those raising concerns with disdain. I have never been able to take anything she says (on any subject) seriously since.

Rosie51

Dickens

I've just had a thought. If it's accepted that TW who've been through male puberty can compete with women - then logic demands that all biological males should also be allowed to compete with them.

The only difference between a male who's been through male puberty and who subsequently identifies as a woman, and one who doesn't, is just that - inner identity... and what relevance logically does that have when you're partaking in physical sport?

I agree. It was what I was trying to say earlier.

If some 'special' males can compete in the female category isn't it discrimination against all the other males to exclude them?

I apologise Rosie51 for not reading before posting. I usually look at all the posts but just dived in this time and was admittedly being a bit of a clever-dick.

I think what I was trying to highlight is the illogicality of allowing biological males into a sport to compete against biological women - such sport that relies on physical strength - based purely on the basis that they feel like women.

I'm not disparaging identity - whatever that identity is. We all have it, we all have that distinctiveness that governs how we relate to society, and it is important that we accept people for who they are based on how they 'see' themselves, or feel about themselves in relation to the rest of the world.

But biology matters and in some instances it matters more than one's feeling of selfhood or individuality.

There is no logical reason why TW cannot compete among themselves. assuming there are sufficient numbers in any given sport. But creating that category would fly in the face of the TWAW dogma, so one will not be created, and TW with the distinct advantage of having gone through male puberty will continue to compete against biological women, with the inevitable results.

If some 'special' males can compete in the female category isn't it discrimination against all the other males to exclude them?

Logically, yes! But inclusivity means different things to different people.

No apology necessary Dickens.

I think it was in Germany a swimming competition had a category for trans athletes to compete in, they received not a single entry.

Yes it was www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received#:~

Was that the lack of validation or that the competition might have been more equal?

It’s time to label them male and female sports.
We can even have male and female and women’s sports.
Entry to the female sport would require a cheek swab to validate your entry.
Entry to women’s sports would not.

Rosie51

No apology necessary Dickens.

I think it was in Germany a swimming competition had a category for trans athletes to compete in, they received not a single entry.

Yes it was www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received#:~

Was that the lack of validation or that the competition might have been more equal?

Thanks for that link.

I can see the problem though. It was an 'open' category for transgender athletes. Not a specific gender-identity. Therefore a transman competing against a transwoman could end up being disadvantaged in exactly the same way and for the same reasons we are discussing.

It might work as a "friendly" competition with the competitors in it just for the fun of it where it doesn't really matter who wins, but not at professional levels. Like must compete with like.

Just been speaking to the coach where my DGD swims, who tells me that their competitions now have two categories, female and open.
Only natal females, including transmen and female bi, can swim in the female competitions.
Anyone, male, female, TW, TM or bi of either sex can swim in open category races.
This perhaps needs to be the way forward.

so we shouldn't allow unfair competition between trans men and trans women but it's OK for unfair competition between biological women and trans women.

Not sure I understand Smileless2012, unless I put it badly.

Transmen can compete in the female category, because they are female.
So it would be their choice to compete against males by entering the open competition.
Otherwise they’re competing against females.

Transwomen are not female, so can only compete in the open competition.
They cannot compete in the female competitions.

That makes sense to me, Molly. Basically, males in one group, females in another, so no males competing against females but a female can compete against males if they wish?

That would be the best possible solution.

That's a solution many of us have proposed for some while Mollygo, it makes absolute sense. I'm assuming that transmen will only be allowed to enter the female category if they are not supplementing with testosterone as that's a banned drug for anybody else.

That was me Molly, not reading your post correctly . What you've said makes perfect sense.

Rosie51

That's a solution many of us have proposed for some while Mollygo, it makes absolute sense. I'm assuming that transmen will only be allowed to enter the female category if they are not supplementing with testosterone as that's a banned drug for anybody else.

That would in theory raise another difficulty, but as you say, it’s a banned drug.

I am just waiting to see transwomen in Rhythmic Gymnastics. While there's an off chance that a trans gymnast might be competitive in Women's Artistic Gymnastics I can't see any one who has been through male puberty having the necessary flexibility and slimness. If it could be done there would already be a men's competition.

Now the boxing, did you see that poor women boxer, fighting a male that has decided to compete in the female boxing, of course he will win everything.

www.thesun.co.uk/sport/29633487/imane-khelif-olympics-boxing-piers-morgan/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_medium=web_push_

Yoginimeisje

Now the boxing, did you see that poor women boxer, fighting a male that has decided to compete in the female boxing, of course he will win everything.

www.thesun.co.uk/sport/29633487/imane-khelif-olympics-boxing-piers-morgan/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_medium=web_push_

It was sickening, horrible and shocking. I despair.