Religious tolerance

I know your post was addressed to soon but I have to respond, feetle. 'Sin' is a religious term but most of what would be counted as sins would also be counted as unethical, dishonest or anti-social behaviours. I think the concept of 'original sin' is a recognition of the fact that we are all human, with all the potential for good and bad that is implied in being human. But so many weird beliefs have been attached to the concept that I really can't go there on one cup of coffee.

Original sin - born with a burden of sin before doing anything at all whatsoever because mankind as a whole and as individuals are still expiating the sin of Adam and Eve in disobeying God in the Garden of Eden. The sin (according to some denominations of Christianity) is inherited by us all.

Acording to wikipedia, the Methodist position is that The Methodist Church upholds Article VII in the Articles of Religion in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church:

"Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually."

A very pessimistic view of the nature of mankind, who are capable of the most non-sinning and selfless acts, regardless of their adherence or non-adherence to any form of religious doctrine, and calculated to bring individuals to their knees in self-loathing and abasement.

Although I was brought up C of E (didn't start learning about Judaism until 25 years ago) I didn't want to have our children baptised there as the service says something about "born in sin."
The Methodist service was more straightforward, and the parents act as God parents. First son was baptised there, and youngest daughter. The other 2 have never been baptised.

soon, original sin - because of the antics of Adam and Eve we are all born sinners. Every baby born today is a sinner. You were born a sinner as were your children and grandchildren . The R C Church is very into original sin, the Anglican Church was but thankfully have eased of. Let's forget for a moment the theologians views on original sin and allow me to give you an example of how it works in practise .

When I was eighteen my mother gave birth to a beautiful baby son, conceived in love, wanted so much by his parents , four sisters and little brother , we were filled with joy. Two days later he died, there was brain damage, I held the tiny hand of this beautiful dead child, someone had to, my parents were distraught , wasn't helped by the comforting words of a Christian - well you have been blessed with five healthy children , will not repeat my fathers reply. When this child was buried our family from gathered at the church, the same church we attended every Sunday, my mother was on the PCC, the priest a close friend of my father. My brothers coffin was not allowed to enter the church, the service was held in the porch with my father, his father and me, the rest of the family on the path. The reason? my brother had not been baptised so was a sinner . We were not told before hand this would happen . The priest wept but he was following the rules of the church on original sin. As written in the Old Testament written by your god soon. I was in bits, as we stood at the grave my father completed the burial service with these words of Christ

'Suffer the little children to come unto me for THEIRS is the kingdom of heaven '

Apologies to posters for such a personal post but some need to understand the pain , I repeat pain, the laws of the OLD TESTAMENT can cause
so soon, what would Jesus have done ?

Anniebach I don't subscribe to all the tenets of the Church, and I am not a regular churchgoer, but one thing that stands out about Jesus is that he emphasised that he was there for the outcasts, for those excluded by society. He condemned the Pharisees for their rigid upholding of the Law, and their neglect of common humanity in the process. Not eating the show bread was more important than feeding the hungry.

In his time it was people like lepers - who had a dreadful and very obvious disease - who were shunned. Now it would be people with Aids - another dreadful disease and one which can cause sufferers to be ostracised, a good deal of that because of the association in people's minds with homosexuality.

Not what Christ would have done.

As for denying unbaptised babes a proper burial - the recent outcry about the disposal of the bodies of still-born babes is an echo of that. Your father said it all.

Tolerance and grace? There is precious little of that, or of the spirit of the law, when the letter of the law is so enthusiastically espoused.

Which bit of the Old Testament was that priest going by? Chapter and verse. I thank God the C of E in my area had become more enlightened by around the time you are speaking of.

Not the Priest Jingle, the Anglican Church and I did say the church has now moved on .

I am talking about the church at the time you are speaking of. Where in the bible did the church come across such a ruling?

Are you sure you didn't just have a mean spirited priest? I thank the Lord that the priest I had contact with at about that time had no such beliefs.

This is not a subject I have thought much, if anything about before. Not even sure I have heard of the concept previously.

I would say that we are not born sinners.
We are born with the capacity to sin, and all do. Your brother obviously hadn't.

I absolutely do not agree with your brother's coffin not going into the church. An awful decision in my opinion. And completely wrong.
I am not at all sure what the RC church thinks about baptism. I am only vaguely aware of what or how other denominations differ in this respect.

This only really part of my answer, and I havent looked into it all enough yet.
I will be back later hopefully.

No Jingle he was not a mean spirited priest, it was the teachings of the Anglican Church and a priest who abided by the teachings . I do grant my parents the intelligence to know the teachings of the churches, my father the preacher of the Baptist Church fifty yards away from the Anglican Church and my mother chairperson of the PCC . A priest could not refuse a child's body in church if it was not the rule of the church .

But soon, the bible tells us we are born sinners

Jingle read the bible, you will find plenty about original sin, more than on homosexuality and the church is still battling with this one

Yes - I know about original sin. But I think you had a mean spirited priest. Very Welsh.

I do actually think the Welsh bit is relevant. Could be all that rain.

And I mean that seriously. The Welsh always have had certain characteristics. The vicar I had dealings with was from the South-East of England.

The RC church always asserted that un-baptised infants could not enter Heaven. They invented Limbo. Don't know if they've changed their thinking.

All a load of codswallop of course.

Jingle, you Welsh dig was pathetic. The priest was English and let us not forget Wales married divorced couples and accepted women priests before England , and the Arch Bishop of Wales supported same sex marriages in 2012

I repeat a priest cannot make up their own rules

"I had to look up what original sin meant" and ^"Not even sure I have heard of the concept previously."^- now I know this is a wind-up!!! It is entirely impossible that you are for real soon.

No Christian, especially a bible-bound one, can possibly not know what this is! Do you not listen to the Christmas service? - I have sung in more carol services than I have had hot dinners and practically have to put my fingers in my ears at the relevant point.

"Original Blessing" by theologian Matthew Fox is an interesting counterpoint to the original sin spiel.

The Adam and Eve story is a myth, like all the others in all the religious texts around the world, and is a story to try and explain evil in the world. Like all these other myths it emanates from the ruling elite: hence men are the good guys and all the sin in the world is the fault of women. We are so unclean! This is partly what has held up women's ordination. And is why people translating the NT interpreted the word for "young woman" as being "virgin ", so the received wisdom of women being unclean could be perpetuated. So much to answer for.

If you really do believe the bible literally soon, maybe you should have a proper read of it!

I will settle for the love and tolerance and leave the bible to others - it is a theme in all religions, and seems a good way to live; and does not require intellectual contortions to understand and justify.

The RC church has English priests jingle , very mean spirited, very english?

It wasn't a dig. The Welsh have always been known for their gloomy type of church-going.

Luckygirl, my point to soon too ,which is why I spoke of the harm done by those who take the bible literally

Have they jingle? I suppose you read How Green Was My Valley and believed Welsh miners came home from the pits singing

"Listen. It is night in the chill, squat chapel, hymning in bonnet and brooch and bombazine black, butterfly choker and bootlace bow, coughing like nannygoats, suckling mintoes, fortywinking hallelujah;"