Overcomplicated

I didn't have a difficult experience in the workplace.

Sorry FreindlyGhost I don't mean this to come across as an interrogation, was your mum a bully?

i was just thinking how sometimes we can't see how bad a situation is until we manage to step away from it.
in my experience, bullies do operate alone, they find their target and continue a campaign of undermining.
if the target protests, they are dismissed as being too sensitive.

welbeck -- Yes. Bully parents are just like that. When their child/target finally protests then the parent sees that as justification for their continued bullying. Any disagreeing with the 'bully' is considered immature and not listening to their "better" which requires more bullying to 'cure'/put them back in their place.

Much like what FriendlyGhost said, "I confused knowing what was best for my daughter with wanting what is best for her. As a result I became overbearing and bullying. A lot of that came from how close we were while she was growing up. It was just she and I for so long I didn't allow her to grow into an autonomous adult."

Not just bullying parents; all bullies.

health.usnews.com/wellness/for-parents/articles/2017-07-13/how-bully-parents-erode-kids-self-esteem-and-create-long-lasting-damage

There are quite a few instances on here of adult children wearing away their parents' confidence, too.

A good point MissA it's not just AC who get bullied by their parents. There have been examples here on GN of P's/GP's being 'bullied' into giving financial support and free child care for fear of being estranged if they don't comply.

I've witnessed first hand the effects of the erosion of self esteem and long lasting damage due to an AC's treatment of their own parents.

"Trying to control a child will result in defiant behavior, argumentative responses and a solemn household. Bully parents raise children who bully. An appropriate discussion in a loving and respectful manner is the only true way to create positive outcomes based on inner values."

From of the article:

health.usnews.com/wellness/for-parents/articles/2017-07-13/how-bully-parents-erode-kids-self-esteem-and-create-long-lasting-damage

Bullying, in what ever form from whom ever, creates long lasting damage to the victim.

Unfortunately no group is immune from harbouring bullies.

This wasn't intended as a stand alone discussion, I meant it as a reply to a discussion with lots of links and articles about narcissists and otherwise abusive people. I should obviously have realised my mistake because replies here do not have titles.

There seems to be a hint of an unfriendly dynamic here I was unaware of, unless I am reading too much into some comments? Please forgive me if I have that wrong. I feel a little overwhelmed

Smileless2012 my mother never really forgave me for becoming a widow or a working mum determined to stand on my own two feet. She wanted me to come home, to find a new husband and to help me raise my daughter in the meantime. We were at odds over a lot of things and aging only made her worse. I loved her deeply but yes I felt bullied often. I wouldn't have used that word back then and I wouldn't have realised just how much it hurt me without the grief counsellor. I don't think it was intentional, I think it was a different time and different expectations. I don't know if someone could have made her understand it was as hurtful as it was. I wasn't as strong as my daughter is. My father was a kind and loving man and always able to bring out the best in my mother.

FriendlyGhost -- "There seems to be a hint of an unfriendly dynamic here I was unaware of, unless I am reading too much into some comments? Please forgive me if I have that wrong. I feel a little overwhelmed"

The denial that you probably ran into when you learned the secret of how to reconnect with your daughter and tried to impart that to others' happens here as well.

My quick history is, I identify as an EAC of a Narc/abusive 'mom' and enabler 'dad'. Family dysfunction came through both sides of my family. I'm married to a man who had a 'mom' just like mine. We have children. (I have not/do not say how many or ages) privacy concerns on that... No Contact with his family or mine. They have not met our children.

So the truth you have learned about respecting your daughter as an autonomous adult and how that can fix estrangement is unlikely to be believed/accepted by some. Just like when EAC try to explain why certain things/attitudes these parents display is problematic and likely the cause of their estrangement.

I believe you mentioned in another comment that you found some EP pages cult-like. I too have seen/commented on the obvious abuse shown on some of those sites. Not only do the parents not recognize their behavior as abuse, the other parents quite often cheerlead/minimize/excuse obvious abuse and continue to blame the child. Shocking to say the least.

Parents that come to the conclusion the reason that they are estranged is due to THEIR behavior are so rare that EAC call them Unicorns...

Unicorn parents get shut down differently then EAC. Uni's get told how why what they/you did won't work in their case because THEY didn't do anything 'wrong' -- insert the usual excuses.

Congratulations for being You and healing yourself and the relationship with your daughter so you can enjoy what I hope is a healthy and happy relationship with her and your grand-child(ren).

There seems to be a hint of an unfriendly dynamic here and it's a shame too as GN is where both EP's/EGP's and EAC can share their experiences. What tends to happen is that EP's who say they don't know why they're estranged,/or have done nothing to deserve their estrangement or say it is due to the influence of a third party for example their AC's partner, are not believed by some.

IMO here on GN the denial comes from some EAC who will not/can not accept that the EAC can be the one responsible for the estrangement.

So an EP like you is regarded as a 'unicorn' because it's rare to see an EP take responsibility. In my experience an EAC who says they are fully responsible are even rarer, in fact I've never see and EAC say that was the case.

There is a GN who after several years of estrangement from her son has now reconciled and when he contacted his mum, he told her it was down to him and that he'd been wrong.

EP's are accused of cheer leading, minimising and excusing obvious abuse and continuing to blame the AC but it's no different in my experience when there are several EAC sharing their experiences.

What you experienced on the site you were on previously, your truthful account of your personal experience not being liked by other EP's, is what EP's experience here from time to time from EAC.

Just to add, it's good to see that a P who has admitted to 'abusing' their child as in your case by bullying your D, is being treated with kindness and understanding.

So often here on GN that is not the case.

Smileless2012.. Most parents of my generation would not agree my behaviour was wrong in any way. They would not agree it was bullying, let alone abusive.

There were a great deal of things I thought I had a right to say and do as her mum that were truly hurting her. Even though I knew they were hurting her, as her mother who loved and adored her I thought they were acceptable. Breaking eggs to make an omelette. She had quite enough of me smothering her and I was so angry that her young know it all self would not listen to my wisdom. We fought and she left.

My fierce strong daughter told me not to contact her until I was ready to let her live her life her way and I'm just ashamed I was too stubborn to understand for so long.

I should have seen myself in her and my mother in me. I didn't stand up to my mother on many things except there was no way on this earth I was going to be living back under her roof by her rules.

I now understand my daughter and myself so much better and no one tells either of us what to do

I'm not sure you can speak on behalf of most parents though, because each and every person/ family/situation is different.

That seems to be an unpopular view, but, there it is.

FriendlyGhost -- "Most parents of my generation would not agree my behaviour was wrong in any way. They would not agree it was bullying, let alone abusive."

Arguably the #1 reason AC estrange. We see our treatment as abusive. Our parents don't. That's why it's so difficult to find EAC who take 100% responsibility for the estrangement. We're not. Usually not even 50%.

Our choices are fight back or walk away. If we want to "fight" we'd stay in contact. No Contact is about ending the abuse/conflict. It takes two to make a relationship work but it only takes one side not willing to see their part to collapse the whole thing.

My 'mom' couldn't and still doesn't see her part. I can sit at zero percent blame or 50% blame for the relationship issues. She's still sitting at 100% "I did nothing wrong."

Most parents of my generation would not agree my behaviour was wrong in any way. They would not agree it was bullying, let alone abusive.

Some parents might not, but most??

Certainly sounds like bullying ( and bullying is abusive) to me from what you describe. Good parents aim to give their children wings to fly and then don't clip those wings again or bend them to make the child fly in a particular direction. Something that you appear to have now learnt which is great for you and great for your daughter!

Madgran -- I agree. It gives hope to EAC that if one parent can see their part that perhaps others can learn to as well.

I'm not sure you can speak on behalf of most parents though, because each and every person/ family/situation is different.

Ain't that the truth MissA!

I think that the ability to see, and recognise, that our own personal experiences, whether positive or negative, are exactly that. Some of us had a shit relationship with our own parents but went on to have happy and loving relationships with our own children and GC. Others had happy, loving and nurturing relationships with our parents but not so much with our adult children. And there are millions of reasons as to why that might be: parents are the cause/adult children are the cause/both are the cause.
Maturity brings a recognition and understanding that our own circumstances and experiences are exactly that; they apply only to us; no one else. What we have done to cause a rift or estrangement within our own family might be perfectly acceptable in someone else's. Similarly, what we have done to create harmonious and peaceful relationships; could annoy someone else to the point of complete and total estrangement.

Maturity, experience of life and a broad outlook makes you realise that there are a million ways of living a life and yours is just one of them.

Over the years that I have been on GN I have seen quite a few who have taken responsibility for their part ...so more hope for EAC Holy Hannah than just Friendly Ghost as a new poster, which is nice isn't it

Very positive Madgran.

Madgran -- You would have to point those posts etc. out for me. I can't think of any, let alone "quite a few" parents taking responsibility.

I have heard some EP's describing abuse but it was justified/'explained' and minimized away. I have seen some EP's call out actual abuse but I didn't see the 'parent in question' regard the feedback as accurate... They stood by their, "I am not abusive."

The, "I know I was abusive and that's why I got cut out and I fixed the issue in myself and things got better" parent? I don't think I've heard that here before.

I am terribly sorry for causing offence but most parents I know or have spoken with (whether that be estranged or still very much a family unit) do not see any problems with my behaviour at all and certainly not grounds for estrangement.

I remember this smiling little girl holding my hand and going on adventures while I quietly took care of all her needs. I tried to hold onto that as she became a young woman. All the problems and arguments it caused, I blamed on her because she had changed not me.
I now understand I simply forgot to let my child grow up and become an autonomous adult with her own life to lead that I wasn't always a part of. I tried to bully her into keeping it that way and doing what I thought was best for her, inserting myself into her future dreams.

Thank you for listening