Voting quandry

I agree that Jeremy Corbyn is a total disaster for Labour but no more so than the Hard Brexiteers are for the Tory party. The only thing to do is if your preferred party candidate is a Brexiteer and you feel that is wrong is to vote for another candidate who is pro EU. If the new parliament has a majority of Pro-EU members then the "Will of the People" expressed on the 23/6/16 has changed and that change should be considered. Tactical Voting may be but circumstances are extreme and we need to consider what is best for the country and for the younger generation.

If the majority in the country appears to be for Brexit then so be it. However as the terms of Brexit become clear views can still change so parliament must have the ultimate veto to call it off as they see fit.

The true mood of the country can only be judged by counting all the votes and projecting what a PR based parliament would be like rather than the FPTP assembly we will be landed with. Open Britain (a cross party anti Brexit alliance) is targetting seats to support pro EU candidates who may be Lib Dem, Labour or Tory.

This shouldn't be about Brexit, or that should only be one of many issues.

Education cuts, NHS, Social Care, the environment and so on are also very important.

Yes, TM will win with an increased majority but perhaps not a big a one as she anticipates...(hopeful emoticon) that might make her think.

Marbles you are voting for your local MP; is there one you feel would personally be good for your area?

How has your constituency voted in the past? Who has the best chance of winning who is not Tory. this will help you find the party that would keep the Tory's out as you have said you do not want to vote for them. If it comes up Labour I think you will just have to decide between those who are left and know that you have voted in a way that leaves you, personally, with a clear conscience.

No one else can tell you what is best; each persons reasons for voting the way they do will be different.

I find it really difficult to understand how any Labour supporter (whether left,right or centre) could applaud dbDB77's post. It's pure Tory propaganda. You're always going on about the poor and vulnerable annie, so how do you imagine they're going to be supported?

The debt is still increasing and austerity isn't working, because it never has. Public services are being slashed. There are two sides to every equation and the fact is that the country isn't collecting enough tax from those who can afford it,which is precisely why May has refused to rule out tax, NIC and VAT rises.

Austerity doesn't work because it reduces the amount of money being earned and, hence, going to the Treasury or available to be spent on what people produce. Too much wealth is being siphoned off to foreign investors and/or to tax havens. With interest rates so low and many people with wealth not being able to find investment opportunities, there's never been a better time to borrow, if necessary.

I agree with you, Anya. obviously Brexit is an issue and still raw for many people, but it should be about other issues. May's alleged reason for calling the election and attempt to focus on Brexit is a smokescreen. The EU has already stated it won't make any difference at all to negotiations. She knows very well that her record on the NHS, education, social care, etc. is abysmal, so has framed the election round an issue which she will win, but will no doubt claim that she has a mandate for a granite Brexit, which will give her an opportunity to abandon the EU laws which have been beneficial to people (not to mention the 2015 expenses).

Sorry, I started this post before a read yours and realise I've more or less repeated what you wrote.

Daphne, I have to accept the poor and the vunerable will not be supported, the numbers will increase and they will have been failed because the far left has destroyed the Labour Party . I realy believe if Labour and taken the centre left ground we would have had a chance of winning .

Anya you are of course right to remind me and others that Brexit is not the only thing to consider. However unfortunately Brexit impacts onto just about everything.

Considering the whole. The NHS and Social Care overlap.

Education or rather the over emphasis on university as the expense of apprenticeship type training. Society needs a system to prepare people for the real world.

We know that lifestyle choices and the environment impact on our health and that in turn affects the NHS and the need for social care. Education in turn affects lifestyle choices. So everything is interrelated.

Our membership of the EU has by and large benefited the Environment, helped education and our health system. Most of the immigration that has caused issues is not from the EU. Nearly all of society's problems are due to bad government decisions over the last 50 years and not the fault of the EU. There are faults in the EU as shown by the French Election but we should be part of fixing them as well as our own issues.

Cindersdad said: I agree that Jeremy Corbyn is a total disaster for Labour

Some Labour party members are, quite obviously, having difficulties with the man who has been democratically elected their leader but this seems to be internecine rather than a country-wide issue. Of course the fighting has brought down Labour's standing but that is not my point.

I do wonder if this means Corbyn will necessarily be a bad leader for the country? I would not naturally be a Labour voter although I would in certain circumstances, and keeping the Tories out is, currently, under FPTP, one of them and this has made me think. All over the world people are selecting leaders who do not look like the cut-out dolls we are used to. Some are quite worrying, some may do better than we thought they could, some are finding the systems need challenging.

I don't believe this has been all good or all bad and I have no way of knowing (nor has anyone else) how Corbyn would be as a leader but I really am fed up with the "trust me; I'm one of the capable politicians" that we are told must be on offer to attract people to their cause. I find they lie and obfuscate and, although the truth may be difficult to hear and someone thinking things through may be different to the 'trust me - I know the answer' politician, I am not sure that this isn't a change for the good.

Dictatorship, Anniebach? No just the opposite. It is the party which sets policy through the COnference. Not the PLP. And not the leader. The party has agreed to maintain Trident. Jeremy can say he regrets this, but that is what policy is. ( I think it is a great waste of money too, defence has moved on a lot since the cold war days).
But then, if you want tory policies. vote tory.

I think annie that you are beginning to allow your hatred of Corbyn to cloud your judgement. Take yourself back a couple of years and you were espousing the very same policies that you are now denigrating.

Of course you may have changed your mind about Labour policy, and that is fine. But at least be brave enough to admit that you no longer find Labour o be your party of choice.

Labour is the party of my choice Whitewave, Corbyn-Momentum is not , I accept it is yours

Corbyn has been associated with terrorist groups and has supported Hamas and the IRA so I don't think anyone need have any worries about not voting for him.

I agree that the question of 'what to vote' is difficult. From another side of the fence I would naturally vote for the party in power as, on the whole, I believe in small 'c' conservative principles though I am not 'tribal' and do not think that the idea of 'my party right or wrong' is remotely moral.

Theresa May supported Remain which might make her a difficult choice for me but she has thrown herself into the Brexit camp with a will. She has supported raising taxes and hammering pensioners, policies with which I have serious issues. I think that her championing the 'JAM's is fine but that she's going the wrong way about doing it as lower taxation will help them more than raising VAT on goods they need to buy.

So, everyone has doubts and no one can unequivocably support one party on every point.

I am swallowing my doubts (and self interest) as I think that the country needs a strong and stable basis on which to negotiate Brexit and will vote for May even though she will punish me for my support. Additionally, my M.P. was a wholehearted Remainer though his constituency wasn't. It sticks in my craw, somewhat, but as is said in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' one cannot always have one's 'ruthers'.

Such dilemmas reflect the nature of the world in which we live.

I wonder if you have really looked at the man and his principles? MSM have consistently reported negative stories about him, some of which are not true. The BBC admitted to a report by Laura Kuenssberg, where she had edited in an answer to a question she did not ask! Did you know that Corbyn's Parliamentary expenses were nine pounds? He does not claim for a second home, as the majority of MPs do, and he travels by public transport most of the time, unlike others who spend taxpayers' money on chauffered limos. Our local MP tried to charge expenses of £185.00 for lightbulbs for the flat that he rents for £1800 odd per month. Who would you rather have working for you?

Look at Labour policies and consider that Corbyn's aim is to lessen the effects of Brexit for working people. Look at what the Tories have done to the NHS. Just because his style of leadership is different it doesn't mean that it is wrong.

I like the idea of the 'man of principle' but when it comes to it Corbyn seems to have a bit of a messiah complex, he knows he is unpopular and despite having what he believes are good policies, (I believe some of them are) he will not step aside and let a more popular candidate get Labour into power.

I think austerity is a greedy red herring.

Lib Dems.........

Greens disappointing.

No idea what to do myself.

We urgently need new parties and new thinking, these old parties are consumed with their own history.

Whoever gets in anywhere in the western word, it seems to be such a close call now that no one wants to accept the results.

I am going to have to hold my nose in the ballot whatever I decide.

hiw many London MP's claim for a second home Coco?

Good post dbB.

annie how on earth do you arrive at the judgement that Corbyn-momentum is my choice??!!!

I try studiously to avoid making any argument about the leader -except the Tories, but they are fair game I try to concentrate on the argumentsand manifestos.

However I largely spend my energies in attacking the Tories - those who are responsible for

The NHS crises
The schools crises
The growth of poverty
Division in society
Growing inequality
The Brexit crises
The enormous deficit
Growing crime rate
Prison crises
The state of our roads
The threat to our environment
The appalling air quality that means 40000 extra deaths a year!!!!!
Inequality in opportunity
The raid on our democracy
The shutting down of debate

And on and on

They are such an easy target. If you really be,I eve in your heart that the Tories are bad for this country you can pick any one of those targets and many more and argue the case for a different government. I ask you to join all of us fighting the Tories from whatever colour.
Concentrating on Corbyn is playing right into the Tory hands and is music to many people's ears.

I know that many people are torn about how to vote but from my point of view as an almost 62 year old being told I have to work until I am 66 despite my National Insurance contributions already being more than enough to meet requirements (and not giving me any more money) I cannot vote for the Conservative party who have chosen to inflict a great deal of misery on women in my age group when they could have done something else instead. Jeremy Corbyn says what he thinks - as Leader he has to conform to the majority wishes of his party anyway, he cannot over rule any vote on his own. I think he gives his personal views rather than just trot out the party line - and he takes all the flack for doing so. He isn't the only person who thinks Trident should be scrapped, the NHS should run on a not for profit basis and not be hived off to already wealthy investors to benefit and that the sick and disabled should not be treated so poorly. Whatever you do please use your vote - it is just less than a century since ordinary women were 'allowed' to vote at all.

I always vote UKIP but our local branch has decided it is not worth the expense of standing a candidate against a LEAVE supporting, 20,000 majority Tory MP so I will go into the polling booth and 'spoil' my ballot sheet with a comment about not really trusting May with Brexit but having no alternative. That will be my vote. I've been involved with scrutinizing votes at the count and comments are read by the candidates although usually just rude words are written on them! Or you can write simply, 'NONE OF THE ABOVE'

May has chosen well with her mantra Britain needs a strong and stable government as we move to Brexit, and many people are willing to grasp this and run with it as a reason to vote Tory even if they have never voted Tory in the past.

But let's explore exactly what it means.

Does it mean that May has been weak and unstable since she took power?

Does it mean that without an increased majority May will not be able to negotiate a good Brexit?

Does it mean that May is asking for a blank cheque

Does it mean that given a large majority May will feel empowered to ignore the many voices calling for moderation and restraint in the Brexit negotiations?

Does it mean that she will indeed be stronger and more stable?

I think these questions are worth exploring, because you are going to hear a lot of this mantra in the next few weeks

Corbyn conforms ?

annie ?sorry Not sure what you mean

When I decide how to vote I know I will not agree 100% for any party and even i am 49/51 I vote with the majority of my beliefs. The personalities of the politicians do not influence me, just what the party stands for and how much I agree with the underlying philosophy.
This was advice I was given when I was voting for the first time and it has stood me in good stead all my life. Hope this helps.

Lilyflower I find it hard to understand how anyone who is conservative with a small "c" could ever want brexit, let alone hard brexit.

Brexit is a hugely destructive policy - wreaking havoc with our economy, damaging our relationships with the rest of Europe, an appallingly reckless leap into the unknown. It conserves nothing.

I am a 'remainer' and personally, I think May has a really difficult job. Poisoned chalice being the PM at the moment, but she's sort of doing her best to guide us through it all. At the end of the day, who do you think is going to do the best job of getting us through Brexit? That is one of the most important issues as far as I am concerned. We all need to be looking to the future of this country and voting responsibly.......good luck in your decision making!