Vegans?

That last sentence is untrue on both counts, as well as being inaccurate. I do care and I don't 'attack' you on 'anything'. My point is that the economics of 3rd world countries are complex. On a simple level, I struggle with the issue of whether or not I buy flowers that are flown in from African countries. If I don't buy, how do those people live?

We need to be prepared to go without stuff, demand industries put back into local economies as well as providing employment. It is v complex.

It is very complex. I'd happily go without the flowers and happily contribute towards alternative economies.

Durhamjen, Just re-read your post at 8:39 yesterday clearly directed at me and wish to point out firstly that there is evidence of our ancestors using fire a million years ago in Africa and Asia. Your argument seems to be that because our ancestors have only been able to cook meat for whatever length of time then it is natural for mankind to eat meat raw.
Well walking is the natural way of getting from A to B but we have progressed and now most of us use planes, boats trains etc. It is called progress.
You eat what suits you, just leave the rest of us to eat what suits us and stop preaching. Frankly if a vegan diet makes everyone as aggressive as you then I am so glad you are in a minority.

Just read today that people who voted to remain are much happier than those who voted to leave.
I am quite happy as I am thank you.
Do you not realise how aggressive the majority are on here?
Including you?

Can you show me the evidence?

Iam and Espee it was a meat eater that was the OP. I can't see where durhamjen been been hectoring, disaproving and aggressive. Pot calling the kettle black.

Personally I think the OP has a cheek to 'have a struggle' with vegans. It's not up to her to question those who choose not to eat meat or other animal products - and I speak as a meat-eater.

Durhamjen, can I assume that your question at 23:34 yesterday is directed at me? You ask for evidence so I suggest that you read up about the Wonderwerk site which is dated to 1 million years ago (Lower Pleistocene). The Xihoudu site at 1.4 million years ago is very much older and has burnt bone but, if I remember correctly no evidence of butchering on those fragments so evidence of cooking inconclusive. My knowledge on this subject is out of date so there may well be earlier sites. Your stated 400,000years was around the date I remembered for this country but you have to remember that the UK was covered in ice before that.
Lovely that you are showing an interest in archaeology, a hobby of mine, but don't try to use it as an explanation for your food choices. We are animals and have evolved through time. All our major advances as a species have been diet related with the availability of meat being the most important one.

Faye, I have not been aggressive, hectoring nor disapproving on this thread and suggest you apologise. I couldn't care less what anybody eats and I cater for lifestyle choices and would never dream of inviting a guest and expect them to cater for themselves. I will say that I have found Durhamjen's responses aimed at me highly aggressive and reminiscent of playground arguments. So the pair of you are presenting an aggressive example of the attitude of vegans.......which provides confirmation of my original vegan joke - How do you know who's a vegan?

You don't convert people to your ideas by abusing their choices.

My post on www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1235771-The-art-of-persuasion could be applied to the air of superior disapproval shown by some (repeat some) vegetarians and vegans to those who eat meat.

Not sure I agree with you there Elegran, meat eaters can be very superior, thinking they know it all and they don't hold back. When I became a vegetarian at age fourteen in 1966 I did not know one vegetarian. Can you imagine the put downs I have endure for the last 50 years, especially in the beginning and at the age I was then. I have been called crazy, questioned on where I get my protein from, that one annoys me more than anything. Told how weak people feel when they don't eat meat. People still tell stories about a teenage relative deciding to become vegetarian or vegan and there is much hand wringing by the adults worried they won't get enough protein. It seems so silly when a plant based diet is a healthy diet.

You posted that durhamjen was hectoring and disaproving Espee. I can not see where she is hectoring and disaproving. You did what you are accusing her of by saying she is hectoring and disaproving.

Faye you are loading all the old insults you got when young onto today's climate of feeling around vegetarianism and veganism.That doesn't exist today, many people choose that food and many food outlets and shops cater to it.
It must work both ways, because for those of us who choose to eat meat, we are fine with their choice but don't want their lectures on what we do!
Sometimes ( not always) converts to a vegetarian way seek to evangelise.

I actually love being asked to cater for vegans and vegetarians, finding new recipes and ingredients.

On another note I read an article this morning about a vegan restaurant in Italy which has banned bottle fed babies if the milk is cow/sheep or goat.
Is this a step too far?
You could take it even further and ban milk which had been expressed, as that has been extracted from a human.
Can things be taken too far?????

Yes Felice as with any human behaviour, things can and often do go too far, but often common sense wins out.What a very silly restaurant that is.

I don't know if this point has been mentioned (haven't read the whole thread.)
As some people will know there are currently restrictions about raising poultry in most of Europe, because of bird flu. There's a strong possibility that the current virus could mutate into one that could infect humans - through eating the meat.
I'm expecting the price of chicken meat to go up (might be wrong) if only meat from unaffected areas is allowed to be sold.
We're not vegetarian yet, but may be in the future.

roses I actually had someone last night trying to tell me how the sheep he was eating was slaughtered. It's not funny, I didn't want to hear about it, why should I, I don't eat it. I don't comment on people's meals. If you dont eat meat how do you know what other meat eaters are saying in 2017. It's a lot better than 50 years ago, that might be because I won't put up with what I did when I was much younger.

This thread was started by Phoenix why has she not commented since?

These must be rather insensitive people that you are mixing and eating with Faye I am a meat eater, but family and wider circle around me are meat eaters and vegetarians, and nobody would dream of commenting ( either way) it's the height of bad manners.

I imagine phoenix is keeping her head down

Faye I am not sure I know what I have said that you disagree with. I posted that SOME vegans/vegetarians have an air of superior disapproval. You posted that meat-eaters can be very superior. Yes, some can, so we are both right. Nothing to disagee about. You have noticed the meat-eaters, I have noticed the non-meat-eaters, that is all.

Faye, you give your reason for saying that I have been hectoring and disapproving towards Durhamjen is that I accused her of being hectoring and disapproving. At no point have I stated that on this thread. I have read all my comments twice to confirm this. May I suggest that you re-read my posts and then get back to apologise for your lies.
I am laid back about people's dietary peculiarities, (each to his own in my view) and do not wish to descend to your playground type arguments. I am a grown up.
Unfortunately you too are coming across as defensive and aggressive on here and both of you reinforce the stereotypical view of vegans with behaviour which turns so many people against you.
Live your life according to your beliefs, just stop preaching to everyone else.

Phoenix, Are you intending to rise from the ashes? (You can keep your hard hat on )

I would be interested to know which of the places you sometimes meet up at cater for vegans. Are there any?

www.earthcafe.co
www.8thday.coop
www.sanskrutirestaurant.co.uk
fuelcafebar.tumblr.com
vrevmcr.co.uk
www.teatimecollective.co.uk

These are just 6 of the 30 vegan cafe/restaurants near me. Vegan and vegetarian cafes, restaurants and supermarkets and very easily accessible around here, no bother at all.