Just to see the children

Smileless2012

just as well for her troubled GD that your friend doesn't regard being asked to step in when things go wrong as being harassed herself MissA.

As I've just posted a GP with a history of abusive behaviour is unlikely to go to court. The first thing that has to be proved is there has been a consistent, close and meaningful relationship with the the GC.

That's extremely unlikely if the parent knows the GP is abusive due to their own child hood experiences. Who would allow that relationship to develop under those circumstances?

I'm just going to say to your last paragraph, that I know that you say by your own experience that adults do abuse other adults and use abusive methods to control and manipulate them.

So this statement either invalidates everyone here and you as well or you must realise that parents who have abused their children continue to do so in adulthood and there are many well known reasons why those children may not wake up to their mistreatment for many years, if ever.

Even when someone knows they are being abused it can be extremely difficult walking away from them, especially if it is a family member.

It can take great strength to put a stop to abuse and heal yourself from that control and manipulation and realise you need to protect your own children.

Summerlove...that is encouraging and hopeful news.

Nice try VS but my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone here let alone everyone.

It's one thing IMO allowing the GP in those circumstances to have contact with their GC, quite another to allow a close,
meaningful and consistent one. Especially if that involves leaving a child alone without parental supervision to ensure their safety.

It is but only to a certain extent Bridie as there's no provision for GP's who have bee estranged by an AC and as a result lost their GC too.

“Nice try VS"

I like that it rhymes but what does that even mean? This is a discussion is it not? I'm still not sure that you understand what you are saying there.

Many emotional abuse victims live under the impression that they deserve bad treatment and that it is their own fault somehow. They don't know what is happening is abuse, they just internalise it. They do allow close relationhips with their own children because they don't think that their child would be harmed.

I've seen people say that exact thing on this forum.

I've seen abused women say it on many forums. "He was making me so unhappy but I thought the children were safe around him and he only took it out on me".

You've even heard it from me, I didn't estrange until my oldest 2 children told me they weren't happy with her behaviour and even though she wasn't directly abusive to them, they witnessed her saying things they didn't like to me and manipulating me into getting her way and they didn't want to know her anymore.

I really think you need to rethink your comment but that's totally up to you of course.

I don't think we need to argue it if you are happy to let what you said stand, I just wanted to check with you that you had thought it through properly first.

Why does every post on estrangement come back to abusive grandparents? However it starts it gets derailed into abuse.

Allsorts it doesn't always come round to abusive grandparents, it comes around to abusive people. Many estranged parents also talk about the abuses done by adult children or their spouces.

Without abusive people, judging by what is discussed here, perhaps estrangement would be far less likely.

Or at least relationships would simply just become distant due to not getting on too well and both parties wouldn't be so devastated by estrangement

I agree AllsortsYou can see it coming down the track again and again.

Oh didn't realise that smileless,

But in this situation it doesn’t matter the reason. It matters that the OP is harassing her daughter and GCs and will get into serious trouble if she doesn’t stop.

I agree Allsorts. The discussion moved onto GP's going to court to get contact with their GC and abuse gets brought into the conversation.

A parents right to protect their children, well not all EGP's pose a threat to their GC

As you say Granniesunite "you can see it coming down the track again and again".

We know that some AC estrange because of abuse and we also know that AC estrange when there was never abuse of any kind, and yet the moment a GP talks about going to court, abuse is mentioned.

The OP hasn't harassed her D AmberSpyglass that is a poster who posted more recently on this thread.

Yes VS I am happy to let what I have posted stand.

It's a step in the right direction Bridie.

I expected that would be the case Smileless

Sweep123

The fact that you are having to quote incidents from Puerto Rico (cruise ship incident) and US shows how rare it is.

Just because you haven't heard of many cases, does not mean they do not exist.

My own mother was so emotionally abusive that it caused one of my children to attempt suicide. She was never physically or sexually abusive to me or my children, and yet there was major damage done. It is a type of abuse that is hard to prove, especially when a child is to young to really articulate problems.

My mother looked into Grandparents Rights. Luckily for my children, she had none. I would have died before handing my children over to her because she had a blanket right to see my children.

This is why when a discussion about a GP seeing their GC and grandparents have "rights" through law, as suggested by sweep, the topic of abuse comes up. It HAS to be discussed.

Of course not all grandparents are abusive. But some are. Not all parents are abusive. But some are. You can not discuss legal rights without discussing all possibilities and that includes abuse.

Smileless2012

Nice try VS but my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone here let alone everyone.

It's one thing IMO allowing the GP in those circumstances to have contact with their GC, quite another to allow a close,
meaningful and consistent one. Especially if that involves leaving a child alone without parental supervision to ensure their safety.

Your post invalidated one person, me.

Not sure why you would think you have the right to talk for everyone on this board by saying "my last paragraph doesn't invalidate anyone let alone everyone". You don't speak for me and you are wrong about it not invalidating anyone. I am actually surprised since you are usually the one calling out other posters for invalidating you. I would think you would not have drawn such a line in the sand on invalidation.

Despite my issues with my mother, I did allow her to have a relationship with my children. My thought process was similar to yours when you allowed your children to see your MIL despite her treatment of you. I thought that she would never hurt my children despite how she treated me my entire life. I allowed close consistent contact, including sleepovers. I did not even know my mothers behavior was abuse until I was sitting across from a professional at a mental health crisis center with my child. All at once I was plummeted into trying to help my own child as an abuse victim and learning that I myself was an abuse victim and processing that.

At best your post insinuates that good parents would never allow their children to be alone with an abuser and that anyone who does is a bad parent. It comes across as judgmental. You also assume that abusive grandparents would not go to court for rights. My mother certainly looked into it. She thought she had a right to continue seeing my children. Luckily the law disagreed with her.

You yourself have said countless times in the past that no one situation is the same as the other. You know that every experience is different and yet you made a sweeping generalization with that post.

So many victims of child abuse don’t identify themselves as such until they have children of their own, and realize that they can’t imagine doing what was done to them to their children.

Many victims truly believe that their parents targeted them, therefore it wouldn’t happen to their kids. Also, there is heavy pressure on forgiveness, “Maybe they’ll be better grandparents than they were parents, your children deserve people who love them, how can you deny your children that, just because of the past? Your parents weren’t good to you, but they didn’t know better, they’ve changed, your kids deserve family…”

Physical abuse is easier to recognize. Psychological abuse is often harder to recognize and recover from.

Allsorts

Why does every post on estrangement come back to abusive grandparents? However it starts it gets derailed into abuse.

First, it wasn't the OP heartland who helped her SIL with money. That was sweep123 who revived this thread weeks after the OP with talk about being told multiple times not to contact her daughter and grandchildren and doing it anyhow. I feel horrible for her not being allowed to see her daughter and grandchildren.

She is also the one who said "All this talk of going to court would be unnecessary if grandparents had an automatic right to see their grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries", which of course brought the conversation to instances where grandparents should not have an automatic right to see their GC.

Abuse needs to be discussed when talking about grandparents legally having an automatic right to see GC. Once someone mentions a law like the EU has, that grants extended family rights to a child, all scenarios must be discussed. It is a normal progression of a conversation on an open discussion forum.

You have made mention of your displeasure of an open discussion several times on various threads recently. I do agree that the never ending cycle between the EP and the EAC here does get old. But until BOTH sides refuse to participate, it will not stop.

I choose to stop reading threads or posts that cause me distress, I highly recommend it. It is very good for my mental health.

Smileless2012

The courts have the higher authority Summerlove just as they do when parents who split up and there are arguments about who the children will reside with, when one parent is being denied access by the other etc.

It has nothing to do with the fitness of the parents Bibbity this about whether or not it's in the best interests of the children to continue their relationship with their GP's.

No DiamondLily in the context of this discussion, children don't have some rights, they're the only ones with rights in accordance with the law.

If you feel that "the importance of grand parents is being overstated here" AmberSpyglass then it's the law you have an issue with. "No one except the parents gets to dictate who they have in their lives"; the law says otherwise.

My children were ages 4 and 3 when I cut off from their paternal grandmother, who was a widow. They did NOT have their rights with seeing their GM, at that age, simply because they weren’t old enough to express an opinion.

Because they were so young, they never really remembered or talked about her anyway. When they chose to meet her (in their 30’s), they stayed an hour, came away, and just said to me they could see why I’d done what I had done. She was still full of bile and spite. They never saw her again, and she died last year.

The Children Act states that “the needs of the child are paramount”, and our estrangement from their paternal grandmother put their well-being first, as it should. The decision was made by myself and their father, and a court ruling would have made no difference to that.

If it all happened again, I would have no hesitation in doing the same thing.

Good grandparents bring a huge amount to their GD’s lives - bad ones don’t.

Parental responsibility is what it’s says, they have the responsibility, and they make the decisions.

Of course, some parents weaponise their children to get their own back for some totally unrelated reasons to the well being of their children. That really is sad. As I said, even if I had fallen out with my parents, I would NEVER have stopped contact between them and my children. The bond was too close, they were wonderful grandparents, and I didn’t need a court to tell me that.

My post did not invalidate you freedomfromthepast it was not about your personal experience, unlike the one earlier on this thread which was about mine, and was invalidating.

You have read into it insinuations that aren't there. I said nothing about "good" or "bad" parents and I did not claim I speak for you or everyone, I speak for myself, give my opinions and clarify the law where I can.

I did not say abusive GP's wouldn't go to court, I said it's "unlikely".

I agree that "abuse needs to be discussed when talking about grandparents legally having an automatic right to see grandchildren as in the EU and many other countries", but as that is not the case here, I don't see why abuse and/or the parents need to protect their children, needs to be brought into the discussion when EGP's are talking about their personal circumstances.

It is my understanding in some countries that GP's have the automatic right to go to court to apply for contact, unlike here where the courts permission to go to court is required, not that they will automatically get it.

freedomfromthepast

I am shaking this morning reading your comments and I am so so sorry for what you and your have children have been through.

Please know that it was not your fault, any victim of abuse stands with you and knows the damage they do. Especially abusers who have had their hands on you from birth and conditioned you to accept their behaviour.

MercuryQueen the same has been said to me many times on these threads. I have clearly described abuse but I have been told that I shouldn't bring my children into that, that I should allow that relationship, that I am hurting my children by not allowing it.

Even when I have described that my children don't want that relationship I have been asked what my role was in that.

It's incredibly painful but most of us still try and explain patiently why blanket rights would put children like ours in danger.

Sweep123

I keep reading how things must remain as they are to ensure a grandchild’s safety. Does that mean all children should be removed from their parents to ensure the child’s safety as the incidents of parents harming their children are well known.
I have never heard of grandparents harming their grandchildren.

Well you might not know me but my father abused his grandchild and is currently in prison for it so I know that there are definitely cases of grandparents harming their grandchildren! Needless to say he would not be let back into my life let alone my grandchildren's and I hope no court in the land would be stupid enough to allow him access! There are always going to be GP's and Parents who harm children sadly.

Of course, some parents weaponise their children to get their own back for some totally unrelated reasons to the well being of their children. That really is sad. As I said, even if I had fallen out with my parents, I would NEVER have stopped contact between them and my children. The bond was too close, they were wonderful grandparents, and I didn’t need a court to tell me that

DiamondLily You are clear and confident in your decision re your MIL. You are clear and confident in making a different decision regarding your parents if that was ever necessary. That is really good to see, as you so clearly put the needs of your children front and foremost in any specific circumstance

Having observed and worked with numerous parents who unfortunately find this aspect very difficult and where weaponising is so often the outcome, it is good to see and I admire your clarity.

I think weaponise is very overused. And people confuse Parents just not wanting another person involved in their childrens lives as the parents doing it solely to cause pain.

Being estranged does cause pain. I'm not denying that. But that can be a byproduct of the decision. Not the main goal.

And people confuse Parents just not wanting another person involved in their childrens lives as the parents doing it solely to cause pain.

Not in the cases I mentioned above Bibbity that I worked with, but yes, that can be the case in *some instances.

But you aren't the parents. At the end of the day people talk on behalf of others. State others intentions, feelings and relationships status as fact. But a lot of it is pure conjecture.